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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Has anyone tried any of the high powered 10mm ammo yet? I like Underwood 140 Extreme Dangerous or their 220
Flat Nose.
My XDM is used primarily as a pack gun.
 

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I'm a bit skeptical of the latest and greatest or bullets at either extreme of the weight spectrum. For defense, proven reliability is #1. Target use is a different story, try them all!
A couple years ago there was mention of some 10mm 220g ammo jamming and at least one boutique ammo maker redesigned their 220g bullet. I am not saying it is a problem now but it reinforces my choice of Underwood 200g SWC woods ammo.
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
I like many experienced tumbling and keyholing with heavy hitters in my Glock 29.
I switched to a KKM barrel for the cure.
I realize that Glock rifles their barrels differently, but it's worth poking around for other experiences.

Guess that I'll just have to try it out myself. 😆
 

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I use Underwood 155 Grain XTP's.
 

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If you're looking for penetration, mass is king regardless of caliber. You don't see big game hunters using light for caliber uber velocity loads for a reason. Here is a side by side test of Underwood's loading of the Lehigh 140gr "Penetrator" at 1371fps vs their 220gr flat nose hardcast at 1128fps. The 140gr Lehigh went 25.3" in gel. The 220gr hardcast went 62.5" and kept going. That was all the gel he had, so we still don't know just how far the 220gr hardcast would have went. Only that it went 250% of the Lehigh and was still trucking.

 

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23" is enough for me, I'm not hunting Cape Buffalo or Elephants.
 
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If you're hunting anything with those rounds or rely on them for potential protection from dangerous animals, hopefully it's boneless like the gel. Occasional black bear and wild boar in these parts and my XDM 5.25" gets the 220gr hardcast for woods carry in case I should run across one in a bad mood. Or the 255gr .45 Super hardcast if I take the .45 XDM. Just saying that Colonel Jeff Cooper and the big game guys got it right with heavy for caliber if penetration is the goal.
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
I noticed that the 140 extreme penetrator was not made by Underwood. Underwood claims 1500' per sec and Chuk at Alaskan ballistics has confirmed that from a G29.
 

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I noticed that the 140 extreme penetrator was not made by Underwood. Underwood claims 1500' per sec and Chuk at Alaskan ballistics has confirmed that from a G29.
Another 129fps wouldn't matter much. Velocity is not nearly as important as mass for penetration. The ammo companies prey on folks who don't know that and that anything under about 2000fps is moot anyway as far as wounds go. The FBI spent a lot of time studying it and concluded (correctly imho) that under about 2000fps the only wounds a projectile inflicts is crushed tissue directly in the bullet path. Above 2000fps you begin to see permanent wounding outside of the bullet path. The ammo companies know that most people fall for marketing hype and they hooks lots of people with the light for caliber and hyper velocity loads. You could drive that 140gr penetrator round to 2000fps and it still wouldn't penetrate as deep as the 220gr hardcast. They're ain't nothing extreme about the Lehigh except the hype.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
I would respectfully disagree with your opinion with respect to velocity.
That 220 will lose velocity quicker and have less impact on target with distance.
But, I appreciate your input.
 

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It is not my opinion Sir that you are in disagreement with. It is science and physics, neither of which have an opinion.

Look up the definition for ballistic coefficient and you find it is the ability for a bullet to overcome air resistance in flight. Then Google up a ballistic coefficient calculator, choose a bullet shape, use .400" (10mm) for diameter, and compare the numbers between 140gr and 220gr. I just did using FMJ bullet type since that closest to what we are discussing. The 140gr = .205 and the 220gr = .322 and the larger the number the better a bullet maintains energy.

Ballistic Coefficient Calculator GunData.org

Then go here and use 1500fps for the 140gr and 1100fps for the 220gr and the ballistic coefficient from the previous site and see what you find.

Ballistics Calculations

The lighter bullet does shoot flatter, but the heavy bullet retains energy FAR better. That applies for any resistance be it air, gel, or tissue.

[email protected] [email protected]
0yds 1500fps/699 energy 1100fps/591 energy
100yds 1239fps/477 energy 1019fps/507 energy
200yds 1065fps/352 energy 958fps/449 energy
300yds 961fps/287 energy 909fps/404 energy
400yds 886fps/244 energy 867fps/367 energy



Notice how the 220gr not only starts out with 36% less velocity but 18% less energy at the muzzle also. At 100yds that has completely flip flopped and now the 220gr has 6% MORE energy, although it still has 21% less velocity at that point. At 400yds where their speeds have nearly equalized, the 220gr now has just over 50% MORE energy.

Bottom line is that mass is king and means FAR more for energy retention and thus penetration than velocity or energy at the muzzle and physics and tests prove that truth. Even at the near muzzle range of the gel test I posted and adjusting the numbers for the 140gr down to the1327fps of that test. That is 584 ft/lbs of energy for the 140gr and 501ft/lbs for the 220gr. With 17% LESS velocity and 16% LESS muzzle energy, the heavier bullet went over 2.5 times as deep in the gel (62.5" and exited the gel block and was still going), where the 140gr only made it 25.3"

If you're putting much "weight" hahahahaha see what I did there :) into muzzle velocity or muzzle energy, you are missing the big picture.
 

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It is not my opinion Sir that you are in disagreement with. It is science and physics, neither of which have an opinion.

Look up the definition for ballistic coefficient and you find it is the ability for a bullet to overcome air resistance in flight. Then Google up a ballistic coefficient calculator, choose a bullet shape, use .400" (10mm) for diameter, and compare the numbers between 140gr and 220gr. I just did using FMJ bullet type since that closest to what we are discussing. The 140gr = .205 and the 220gr = .322 and the larger the number the better a bullet maintains energy.

Ballistic Coefficient Calculator GunData.org

Then go here and use 1500fps for the 140gr and 1100fps for the 220gr and the ballistic coefficient from the previous site and see what you find.

Ballistics Calculations

The lighter bullet does shoot flatter, but the heavy bullet retains energy FAR better. That applies for any resistance be it air, gel, or tissue.

[email protected] [email protected]
0yds 1500fps/699 energy 1100fps/591 energy
100yds 1239fps/477 energy 1019fps/507 energy
200yds 1065fps/352 energy 958fps/449 energy
300yds 961fps/287 energy 909fps/404 energy
400yds 886fps/244 energy 867fps/367 energy



Notice how the 220gr not only starts out with 36% less velocity but 18% less energy at the muzzle also. At 100yds that has completely flip flopped and now the 220gr has 6% MORE energy, although it still has 21% less velocity at that point. At 400yds where their speeds have nearly equalized, the 220gr now has just over 50% MORE energy.

Bottom line is that mass is king and means FAR more for energy retention and thus penetration than velocity or energy at the muzzle and physics and tests prove that truth. Even at the near muzzle range of the gel test I posted and adjusting the numbers for the 140gr down to the1327fps of that test, that gives it 584 ft/lbs of energy, right on par with the 220gr muzzle energy of 501 ft/lbs, but yet the 220gr went over 250% as deep in the gel (62.5" and exited the gel block and was still going), where the 140gr only made it 25.3"

If you're putting much "weight" hahahahaha see what I did there :) into muzzle velocity or muzzle energy, you are missing the big picture.
So what are your thoughts on Liberty Civil Defense Handgun Ammunition 10mm Auto 60 gr SCHP 2400 fps?
 

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I would respectfully disagree with your opinion with respect to velocity.
That 220 will lose velocity quicker and have less impact on target with distance.
But, I appreciate your input.
Also, what are your thoughts on Liberty Civil Defense Handgun Ammunition 10mm Auto 60 gr SCHP 2400 fps?
 

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So what are your thoughts on Liberty Civil Defense Handgun Ammunition 10mm Auto 60 gr SCHP 2400 fps?
I assume you asked because it does break the 2000fps barrier and get into where we see permanent wounding as an effect of velocity? I do not believe this ammo benefits from that because it is losing that velocity too quickly because it is so light and because it fragments at around 3 inches. That is the velocity range of 7.62x39 but just half the mass. That ammo is designed to give up any benefit of wounding from its velocity. If it were a solid or JHP with enough mass to hang onto 2000fps+ for a little while then maybe, but I personally wouldn't carry that or RIP or any other fragmenting round I have seen. IMHO there is a reason that as of now any professional self defense ammo number one suggestion is going to be HST or Gold Dots. I have done a good bit of research on the subject and for what its worth I use the heaviest flat nose hardcast for the caliber when I want maximum penetration for woods carry and Federal HSTs (standard pressure non +P) for home defense/carry guns. My 10mm is strictly a woods guns only though. I love the 10mm as a woods gun but think there are better self defense options. I keep an XD Mod.2 Tactical 5" .45ACP on the night stand with 230gr HSTs because they're shown to reliably penetrate to about 14 inches in gel and expand top a whopping .85" (sometimes over .90") while doing it. I'm really not a fan of 9mm but recently swapped from an XD Mod.2 3.3" Compact .45ACP to a Hellcat just because the Hellcat is a good bit slimmer, thinner, and lighter and carries so much better. The Hellcat gets standard pressure non +P 124gr HSTs.

If you are wondering why I like HSTs so much and in particular the .45, check this out. 9mm vs .40 vs .45 HST gel test. All penetrate within 1" of each other but look at the surface areas at 6:21 in the video when they are side by side. From my research I am confident that handguns wound with surface area alone. Even considering FMJ or failure to expand the .45 has 66% more surface area than 9mm.

I am carrying a 9mm for now myself so not knocking it as a mouse gun or anything, just saying IMHO the .45 is far superior in close quarters against soft targets.

 

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I assume you asked because it does break the 2000fps barrier and get into where we see permanent wounding as an effect of velocity? I do not believe this ammo benefits from that because it is losing that velocity too quickly because it is so light and because it fragments at around 3 inches. That is the velocity range of 7.62x39 but just half the mass. That ammo is designed to give up any benefit of wounding from its velocity. If it were a solid or JHP with enough mass to hang onto 2000fps+ for a little while then maybe, but I personally wouldn't carry that or RIP or any other fragmenting round I have seen. IMHO there is a reason that as of now any professional self defense ammo number one suggestion is going to be HST or Gold Dots. I have done a good bit of research on the subject and for what its worth I use the heaviest flat nose hardcast for the caliber when I want maximum penetration for woods carry and Federal HSTs (standard pressure non +P) for home defense/carry guns. My 10mm is strictly a woods guns only though. I love the 10mm as a woods gun but think there are better self defense options. I keep an XD Mod.2 Tactical 5" .45ACP on the night stand with 230gr HSTs because they're shown to reliably penetrate to about 14 inches in gel and expand top a whopping .85" (sometimes over .90") while doing it. I'm really not a fan of 9mm but recently swapped from an XD Mod.2 3.3" Compact .45ACP to a Hellcat just because the Hellcat is a good bit slimmer, thinner, and lighter and carries so much better. The Hellcat gets standard pressure non +P 124gr HSTs.

If you are wondering why I like HSTs so much and in particular the .45, check this out. 9mm vs .40 vs .45 HST gel test. All penetrate within 1" of each other but look at the surface areas at 6:21 in the video when they are side by side. From my research I am confident that handguns wound with surface area alone. Even considering FMJ or failure to expand the .45 has 66% more surface area than 9mm.

I am carrying a 9mm for now myself so not knocking it as a mouse gun or anything, just saying IMHO the .45 is far superior in close quarters against soft targets.

Agreed. I carry HST myself. I do like Ranger T also.
 
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