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I happened to notice the 9mm hollow point version of the famous WWB today at Walmart.
Has anyone every used this stuff? Is it good for self defense compare to Hydrashoks etc.?
The stuff they had was 147grain
 

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they are no hydrashoks. The fact that walmart sells them, and that they cost 1/3 of federal hydrashoks should clue you in on that one...

I am sure they are good range practice, but unless you shoot 147 defense ammo, it probably wouldnt be ideal. I have experience with the remington value pack stuff, and I couldnt hit a target 15ft away with them, load up WWB, within the 8 ring, every shot
 

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NExd said:
The fact that walmart sells them
Using that motto, that takes away about half the good ammo out there.

If that's the only JHPs you can find, go with them. I use them for a substitute when I run out of 147 TMJ WWB since my XD hates 115gr.

No they're not as good as say Gold Dots or Hydra-Shocks, but in a pinch its better than nothing.

Makes me wonder if I should do some expansion tests of all the 9mm JHP ammunition.
 

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If I recall correctly...

The 115-grain WWB JHP (USA9JHP) is the same bullet design as the Winchester Silvertip.

The 147-grain WWB JHP (USA9JHP2) is the original Winchester Ranger bullet design that the FBI switched to after abandoning the Federal HydraShok.
 

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I keep a box in my ammo can, just as a back up to my Hydrashocks. Every few trips to the range i fire of a magazine full just to stay familiar with the response of the weapon with the heavier load. Additionally, i use it in the bottom of my spare magazine to make a full load since i only have 20 Hydrashocks at this moment. I figure i won't really need the extra one or 2 shots, but better safe than sorry.
 

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Just FYI, the Federal Hydrashocks are an old style ammo and not nearly as effective as other rounds. They fail to penetrate 4 layers of denim in testing and are not as good of defensive round as Federal Tactical, Gold Dot, SXT and Ranger Talon, to name a few.

I'm not the gun expert, but and I have offered this before, go to tacticalforums.com, then to terminal effects forum and then do a search at the top for "service pistol caliber" (without the "") you will read info from ballistic/wound expert Dr. Gary Roberts, who has done extensive ammo testing. He recommends various brands in different calibers after extensive testing and he posts the results. I don't admit
to understanding the technical stuff, but I have found it to be informative and what I do understand, I like. I'm fortunate enough to be able to purchase the Wichester LE 147gr Ranger Talon, the same my former dept. uses.

If people here are tired of me mentioning tacticalforum.com as a reference, I will desist. I have no financial interest in them and do not know anyone on that forum, other than a fellow le from my former dept. I was referred to it from a le forum and only recommend it to help those here in making an intelligent decision as to which ammo to use based on their expertise. That's all.[/list]
 

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The WWB JHP loads are both adequate and reliable for self defense use. The beauty of this is the fact they are cheap enough to practice with without having to take out a second mortgage. I carry them in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The ammo functions reliably, and the bullet will do it's part if you do yours.
 

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I wondering MoJo, other than your experience in shooting and reloading, what is your expertise for such a statement? Have you done extensive ballistics/wound testing to arrive at this statement? I'm not trying to start a flame war and I don't have any expertise; I rely on the experts, such as at tacticalforum and my dept's testing/experience.

Also, for me, adequate is not enough. I want superlative when it comes to self defense of me and mine. I spent 27yrs in le and depended on my dept. to choose the right round; I think they did finally with the Ranger Talon, though there are plenty of other excellent defensive rounds out there. I don't believe WWB was one one of those recommended.

If you feel comfortable with a round that you believe is "adequate" for your self defense, stick with it. I, on the other hand, will use what I believe is the better round based on the experts' testing and my dept's real world testing/experience.

Stay Safe.
 

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retired said:
Just FYI, the Federal Hydrashocks are an old style ammo and not nearly as effective as other rounds. They fail to penetrate 4 layers of denim in testing and are not as good of defensive round as Federal Tactical, Gold Dot, SXT and Ranger Talon, to name a few.

Fail to penetrate layers of denim?

Really?

Yet it can go through 7 layers of sheetrock?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/1/
 

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chrome said:
retired said:
Just FYI, the Federal Hydrashocks are an old style ammo and not nearly as effective as other rounds. They fail to penetrate 4 layers of denim in testing and are not as good of defensive round as Federal Tactical, Gold Dot, SXT and Ranger Talon, to name a few.

Fail to penetrate layers of denim?

Really?

Yet it can go through 7 layers of sheetrock?

http://www.theboxotruth.com/1/
I'm not an expert, but...

I'm sure the HydraShok will go through 4 layers of denim, the problem is that it does not exhibit consistent expansion once it passes through the fabric.

Bullets do really weird stuff in real life. There are some accounts of the Winchester Silvertip not penetrating leather jackets, and Chicago's police department is starting an investigation into the Federal Expanding FMJ because they claim that it bounced off of one perp's head, and also failed to penetrate a winter coat on another BG.

Winchester has used the WWB JHP bullets for lots and lots of things. Go to glocktalk.com and do a search for USA9JHP2 and look for the posts by a member named BrokenArrow.
 

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Yep, the box of truth guy just did this but hasnt put it on his site yet. He has a whole series of tests that show that layers of fabric can prevent ammo from expanding. Whether this is only true of Hydrashocks, I have no idea.

Ed. to Add: I have used the WWB HP's in my XD to carry before I decided to buy a box of hydrashocks. They feed and function very well and I used them because I had them and the probably wouldn't overpenetrate as badly as regular WWB. I'd still use them for the same reason. I don't see myself at a disadvantage because I have this stuff loaded instead of some premium ammo. That being said, I currently have my carry mags loaded with hydrashocks.
 

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MoJo said:
The WWB JHP loads are both adequate and reliable for self defense use. The beauty of this is the fact they are cheap enough to practice with without having to take out a second mortgage. I carry them in 9mm, .40 S&W, and .45 ACP. The ammo functions reliably, and the bullet will do it's part if you do yours.
Thank you MoJo. All this crap that gets talked about as far as personal protection ammo is just that, crap. I think it all a big bunch of hipe to charge twice the money for the same ammo. The only differents being a chrome casing or a different colored bullet. If you believe 124 grain bullet is what it takes to do the job then go buy it. Just look at all the post here on the subject. Even the pro's don't know for sure what the best ammo is. They just make a guess and that's all they can do, guess. Of course the pro's get paid to sell a product.
 

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As I said, I am no expert, that's why I go to some of the forums I go to read/learn from the experts. It's also why I come here. I've learned a lot about my XD from those who have more experience with it. I read practically every thread on this site. Some of the things I read are informatitve, some are humorous and some are both.

That being said, I only said what I did because MoJo made the statement, without out any facts to back it up that I noted, that WWB is both adequate and reliable for self defense use. I merely asked him what evidence he had to support that. He could be right, but I'm not in the habit of accepting things at face value. In the line of work I used to do, it could have gotten me killed. Again, I wasn't trying to insult him or flame anyone. Show me factual evidence and you've got me. Also re the expense: I've gone into Turner's (local chain) and they sell 18 Ranger SXT rounds for, I believe $20. I am fortunate in that I can still buy from my former dept. 50 rounds of Ranger Talon 147gr for $11. And this is a better round from what I've been able to determine.

In the same line, I referred to tacticalforums because I have found it to be a very informative/interesting sight that provides what I believe is significant info on ammo /calibers. It is not composed of salespeople trying to sell a particular ammo. Yes, Mad Dog, one of the moderators, does have a forum there re the knives he makes/sells, but the terminal effects forum has to do with the effectiveness/testing of various calibers/brands of ammo. Many of those who contribute are engineers, doctors expert in wounds, ballistics experts and physicists. Again, I don't understand the technical stuff, but what I do understand, seems logical and based on the extensive testing they do.

The 4 layer denim testing is evidently a "standard" used in ballistics/gelatin testing for purposes of penetration of clothing that a BG might be wearing. At least, this is what I understood from those forums' experts. Argue with them if you wish.

The sheetrock pics were nice to look at, but the last time I checked, people don't wear sheetrock, they wear clothing (unless you are at a nudist resort of course, then everything goes out the door). The denim testing is to simulate a BG wearing layers of clothing; perhaps a heavy jacket over a couple of shirts.

One-eyed-fatman: The test I referred to on tacticalforums involved ammo from 115 grain-240gr., I believe, depending on the caliber; 9mm, 40cal, 38, 357, 40 and 45. Dr. Roberts, a nationally recognized ballistics/wound expert, names numerous brands in each caliber and gr. weight that he recommends is a robust ammo round. His aim, as is the other experts there, is to do their tests to find what will do the best job for the leo and military. If it will serve that group, it will certainly serve us civilians.

Contrary to what you stated sir, Dr. Roberts and the others do not make guesses. They perform detailed tests and provide the info gained from those tests to the military and le agencies. He is a Lt. Commander in the Navy and has worked extensively with the military and le agencies around the country. I would consider him a "pro".

Bottom line, to use a cliche, I'm not trying to insult anyone, I don't play that. I read a statement and made a comment as a result, questioning the basis for it. I requested evidence. Additionally, I referred the members here to go to tacticalforums.com (would someone please tell me how to do the link thing so you could put the cursor and go on it if you want? I'd appreciate it as I'm not computer lit.) if they wanted to read some info from some ballistics experts, who, from what I have been able to determine after over a year there, have a desire to help people understand what ammo does. They are not trying to sell a particular brand or round as one-eyed-fatman might suggest.

Go to that site, read what they have posted and if you don't like what you read, don't go back. I won't be offended. I thought I was helping members gain some knowledge by mentioning that site just like others here have done with sites they have mentioned.

Lastly, as I said to MoJo, if you feel comfortable with an "adequate" round for your self defense, use it. I, on the other hand, will stay with a superlative proven self defense pistol round. Please, all of you stay safe.
 

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It's OK retired I wasn't trying to kick anyone's ass. I just get tired of everyone agreeing to disagree on what ammo is best. Even the pro's can't agree on which ammo is best. Buy what you can afford to buy, shoot it often and hope it does the job. Buying ammo you can't afford to practice with doesn't make any sense to me.
 

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They ARE the same bullet as the silvertip without the fancy plating. At one time, possibly even now, they were made by Israeli Military Industries for Winchester. This ammo is a good as it gets for standard, non plus P jacketed hollow points. I can't lay any claims to ever seeing some one shot or shooting any person with any pistol but I have used various calibers and bullet types on animals up to and including deer. Most of the time using 9mm, all results with standard velocity ammo have been about the same regardless of what bullet design happened to be used. There is usually a noticable difference when plus p velocities are used. My favorite load is whatever 124 grain JHP loaded to at least plus p, plus p plus even better. Penetration has sometimes been on the low side with plus p 115 grain hollow points, I suppose the extra expansion due to added velocity is the reason. MY OPINION ONLY. YMMV!
 

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I guess the only solution is to pack at least one of everything into one's magazien and empty the mag. BTW, Retired, did it ever come into mind that the department chose the "cheapest" ammo? Not saying that they did, but most PDs are feeling major budget crunches and the bean counters are willing to cut corners everywhere. Just accepting what your dept. hands out blindly is a not real answer either. Also I would have to double check even "researched" ammo like that you spoke about. Having worked in the academic environment I know that testing and pomparisons are frequently colored by the researchers hidden agendas. I could tell you horror stories about pharmaceutical research being fudged at a university so that the manufacturers who paid for it could comeout smelling like a rose. In many cases there is also a "publish or perish" mentality and researchers do anything to get papers out in order to get promotions. I tend to take all academic papers and research with a grain of salt unless I can find multiple colaborations as to the results.
 

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manygunner I obviously wasn't privy to the testing done by the dept., but I'd like to believe even with financial constraints (and boy they have a lot, not having a contract or raise for over 3 years), that the largest and I believe one of the best, if not best dept. in the country (Los Angeles County Sheriff) didn't go for the low bid when it came to the ammo selection for it's people. Originally, we used Black Talon, but since it wasn't pc, the name was changed. SXT (Supposedly standing for same exact thing), I believe was the next generation and still available to civilians. Ranger Talon is the 3rd generation I think and my reading says it's one of the top ones.

I did not blindly accept what the dept. issued and I resent the statement. If I had had a choice, you can bet your life I would have done research on what was believed to be an excellent defensive round and purchased as if my life depended on it as it did. We had no choice as it was the required ammo. Until we were allowed to buy the H&K 45cal USP, that was the only ammo allowed. There are also restrictions as to the 45, but I'm not aware of what is allowed as I chose to stay with the issued Beretta 92f.

I agree with your statements regarding researchers hidden agendas, especially when it comes to pharmaceutical companyies. As I stated in the prior post though, I don't believe the experts on tactical forums have any agenda other than making sure the military and leo have the best ammo available to survive in their respective duties. From what I have read while going to that site, I can come to no other conclusion. Though your experiences may have shown otherwise, I am satisfied with my thinking as regards the experts on that form. And yes, I too look at everything with more than a grain of salt. As I stated earlier, during my career, that could have meant my life if I hadn't. We can agree to disagree and do it as adults. Thank you.
 

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OK, sorry. It just sounded like you carried what the dept issued, no questions asked. Maybe I did not read deep enough. My point was mainly that I do not believe that any "testing" done anywhere is going to be an accurate measure of effectiveness. If it were, we would all be carrying 20mm electric gattling cannons with DU AP rounds strapped to our backsides. I think that for anyone here, any of the "premium" brands will do just fine as long as it cycles reliably in their guns.
 
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