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Hi Gang,
After watching the review by shootingthebull411 on youtube, I decided to get both the Train, as well as the Defend loads for my Kimber Micro 9 since he tested it on a nearly identical Sig P938. My first shots with the Train (for those not familiar, this is the same 147gr weight and similar profile as the JHP Defend ammo, at a lower cost to ensure that it works properly in your carry gun) ammo was in my relatively new (600ish rounds?) XDs and it fed just fine but the slide did not lock back on the empty chamber. I have had 0 issues with the weapon to this point. I reloaded (BTW, I had cleaned and lubed the gun a week before this) and tried again and the same thing happened. I put in my previous defensive carry ammo, the Hornady Critical Defense and fired a few rounds and after the last, it locked back fine. I then put some in my Micro 9 (I had previously tried a few of the JHP Defense rounds already) and ran a few through and it worked just fine. Is anyone else using this issue in their XDs 9mm 3.3? I'm curious as to what is up. I love this gun even though it was too big for my criteria of truly concealed, hot, summer carry, but I liked it so much that I bought one primarily for range use, though I have occasionally carried it too. If I do decide to carry it, I will likely load with the Hornady until I have my confidence with this. BTW, most of the time I use 115gr RN ammo but I have run various HP ammo, including some heavier weights without a hiccup. Thanks in advance.
 

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This is why we test out ammo in our own guns, when we shoot thrm.

Some individual guns don't care for some individual loads; or it could be a combination of the gun/load/shooter...because I'm sure somebody will becalong shortly saying that the 147 Train/Defend works just fine in their (same model) pistol.

It's nothing to get excited over; find another carry load (Critical Defects sucks), test it, and go from there.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
8]This is why we test out ammo in our own guns, when we shoot thrm.

It's nothing to get excited over; find another carry load (Critical Defects sucks), test it, and go from there.[/QUOTE]

OK, now I have to ask; Are you talking about in a 3.3 9mm? How did you come to that conclusion? If it jams, etc, that is what I will reject it for. As to its actual performance? I have to trust whatever review(s) I go by. I appreciate the scientific (read: consistent) method shootingthebull411 uses. The pistol in question is VERY close to my EDC (mine has a 0.15" longer barrel, but who's counting? Visually almost identical (OK, mine has a slightly larger beavertail and thus, no slide bite as I got with the P938. I shoot 22's up to .45's which doesn't prove anything. It just seems odd that if the details of this ammo is correct, it is supposed to mimmick the Defend load at a reduced cost. This is the last thing I expected. A FTF, purhaps? FTE, maybe? Anyhow, what went wrong for you with the CD? What did you choose to use (if you are talking about the 3.3 again)? Thanks.
 

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Discussion Starter #4
Hi Gang,
After watching the review by shootingthebull411 on youtube, I decided to get both the Train, as well as the Defend loads for my Kimber Micro 9 since he tested it on a nearly identical Sig P938. My first shots with the Train (for those not familiar, this is the same 147gr weight and similar profile as the JHP Defend ammo, at a lower cost to ensure that it works properly in your carry gun) ammo was in my relatively new (600ish rounds?) XDs and it fed just fine but the slide did not lock back on the empty chamber. I have had 0 issues with the weapon to this point. I reloaded (BTW, I had cleaned and lubed the gun a week before this) and tried again and the same thing happened. I put in my previous defensive carry ammo, the Hornady Critical Defense and fired a few rounds and after the last, it locked back fine. I then put some in my Micro 9 (I had previously tried a few of the JHP Defense rounds already) and ran a few through and it worked just fine. Is anyone else using this issue in their XDs 9mm 3.3? I'm curious as to what is up. I love this gun even though it was too big for my criteria of truly concealed, hot, summer carry, but I liked it so much that I bought one primarily for range use, though I have occasionally carried it too. If I do decide to carry it, I will likely load with the Hornady until I have my confidence with this. BTW, most of the time I use 115gr RN ammo but I have run various HP ammo, including some heavier weights without a hiccup. Thanks in advance.
I have a suggestion for myself(!!) I need to make sure I am not letting my thumb drag against the slide!
 

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CD sucks in testing and hasn't been too good in real world shootings.

He's talking about having two identical models of pistol and the same box of ammo and one will shoot it fine while the other repeatedly chokes on it.

Get on Lucky Gunner or SGammo and try out some Speer Gold Dot, Federal HST and Winchester Ranger T in the 50 round Law Enforcement boxes. Much cheaper to buy them that way and find out if the gun likes them or not.

If it won't shoot in the gun reliably, I don't give a rat's ass what it does to gel.
 

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Stay with ammo that's passed the FBI's testing criteria.

Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo

Why?

Stop Worrying About Overpenetration!

Greg Ellifritz's latest blog entry makes for a compelling case.

Don't sweat the difference too much in terms of your defensive/duty versus range ammo. Just be sure you're familiar enough with your defensive/duty ammo that you know, intimately, the difference between its external ballistics versus that of your range fodder, and you'll be just fine (and here, in-reality, shooting from the same gun, provided that there's no surprising/unlikely inconsistency that comes about due to specific-ammo/specific-gun differences [hence the reason to test one's own gun, with any ammo one intends to use, as Cuda66 noted], the truth is that at anything short of the 25 yard line, there's unlikely to be any mechanical differences that is not hidden by shooter execution).

Similarly, for those who practice sufficiently, the differences in recoil impulse will not be that problematic in light of everything else that will be different between a real-world life/death armed encounter versus your practice/training sessions. That you have properly ingrained your marksmanship skills will allow sufficient transfer.

My defensive ammo in the XDms are all 147 gr. Federal HST. I typically train with 115 gr. and 124 gr. range-fodder, of which the bulk is of the former. My day-to-day variances in marksmanship - both absolute accuracy/precision as well as time-between-shots (i.e. "splits") - are consistently greater than any variance that I see when switching between defensive versus range ammo.

Certainly, if you are able to afford to train more with your defensive ammo (or simply have access to your duty ammo), by all means, do it. I sincerely envy the LEOs and alphabet-agency guys and gals who've I've taken classes with, who show up with case upon case of their duty ammo, issued or bought with their departmental/institutional "ammo allowance," specifically for practice and training.

But don't sweat it if you don't. Just maintain sufficient familiarity. ;)

If that "Train" ammo doesn't work out for your gun, like Cuda66 wrote, just move on. It's not worth losing sleep over. Just pick another cartridge that will provide you with similar external ballistics and both subjective felt recoil, blast, as well as night-time flash/smoke.
 

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I usually use the less expensive, but still good quality, 115 gr ammo for range practice. Fiocchi and American Eagle have been extremely reliable in my Shield, Glock 17, and S&W Model 39-2. So for SD/HD ammo, I use Federal HST 124gr. It has also proven to be extremely reliable. You can find the HSTs on line fairly cheap, usually around $19, in the 50 round boxes at places like SGammo, Target Sports USA, and Bone Frog. (Funny name, but good to deal with)

It is definitely worth it to run a box or two of your defensive ammo through the firearm to insure it functions properly. Then do all your practicing with the FMJ rounds. The difference between the 115gr and 124 gr is negligible as far as POI and recoil.
 

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Train and Defend is marketed to new shooters, aka total Newbs. People too lazy to spend 15 minutes on google looking for information on ammunition to include performance, and cost. You can buy your JHP at over $1 per shot if you want to, but I will continue rocking my Speer Gold Dot 124+p that is law enforcement grade and $0.40 cents per shot.
 

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Ya, don't even waste your time trying to figure it out. You don't buy train so you know defend will be same. You buy what ever is on the shelf to train. You buy defensive stuff of your liking and run a few boxes to know its good in your gun. Then you continue to cycle through your inventory and replace what's been sitting in your mags to continue to know it works. Especially what you carry. Keep your ammo fresh and clean.

HST, Gold Dot, and Ranger T are all long standing, field proven, top performing defensive rounds. Simply no reason to use anything else. Ranger T seems rare. I don't think I've ever got any. Everything I own eats HST and Gold Dots all day every day.

As far as Critical Defense.... There's a reason it's always on the shelf. And a Kimber micro 9, isn't a Sig P938. JMO
 
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