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Discussion Starter #21
I won't even begin to try to talk you out of an AR Pistol in 300 ACC. I acquired a PSA upper and lower last year and It is definitely a winner. The only thing I might do different is opt for a 9 or 10 inch barrel instead of the 7.5". I have an AR pistol in 5.56 too, but I enjoy shooting the 300 Blackout more.

View attachment 802638
That’s a nice setup. Right along the lines of what I’m looking for.
 

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Discussion Starter #22
Just something with better QA/QC. There are so many reports of inconsistencies with Springfield's ARs that I'm not convinced that they are worth the money.

I'm not a brand-loyalist, I just go with the tool that's the best fit. ;)

BCM and SOLGW both have .300 Blk pistols as a part of their offerings. I don't think LMT does .300 Blk pistols, but they have both SBR and integrally suppressed SBR offerings in that chambering.

I don't know if DD's stepped up their game more recently or not. There was a while back there not too long ago that I wouldn't recommend a DD to family/friends because of QA/QC slack.
I wouldn’t pay LMT pricing for a pistol, since I’m not looking to print tiny groups with it I wouldn’t be willing to drop that kind of coin. Just my view anyway.

I’m looking for Glock level performance here. Like my carry guns are. I’m not hoping for Nighthawk or CZCustom performance levels. Solid shooter and self defense accuracy.
 
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I wonder how a AR 45 suppressed would compare to a AR 300 suppressed with the same barrel length.
 

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Well as usual, you can run 223 in a 8" barrel, and hot 300, or any variety that tickles you... However, ARs were designed to be rifles. 300 was designed specifically to suppress an AR.... Which yielded a really fat sub bullet. It's popularity is driven by the fact you can use same bolt and mags... Even though many don't suppress. 6.8 was designed for short barrels. Carbines. Because the military's move to carbines took performance away from 223.

So my only point is... Specific rounds designed for specific purposes. In your home... 300 gives no real advantage over 223.... Especially since both ot of a short barrel are going to be very loud and disruptive. Sure, it's a smaller package.... But if you REALLY need a something more than a pistol in your home... Then you REALLY need everything you can get. Of all fighting weapons, a carbine is a fantastic choice. And if you think 223 isn't enough... Well, 6.8 is.

They have heavier and slower... But Underwood has 300 BO at 115 gr @2300... Super fast 9mm doing 1400 ft/lbs. Subsonic is 190 gr @950 fps. That's 450ft/lbs...pistol territory. My 10mm is 135 gr doing about 16-1700 fps... 1200 ft/lbs... But it is a pistol cartridge.

I'm not saying anything is right or wrong. It's all lead I don't want to catch. But rifle rounds with rifle charges still make rifle noises. Pistol charges are a little nicer indoors. If you are getting slow rifles or fast pistol territory, pistol rounds are always friendlier... And you have posts in same caliber.

By contrast... When I went 10mm... Recoil is nothing in a heavier two handed platform. Longer barrel increases performance... And 30 rounds in a very controllable, unobnoxious, platform with weapons light and hot 357 mag performance. I can't say it's worlds better than the same in 9mm or 45 like Cuda said. A rifle cartridge in a short barrel... Don't like being next to them at the range let alone at night in my hallway.

Stuff to consider... I was rambling a page ago...
 

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Oh... And my 10mm is on GB right now. I got a new truck and wat new toys... And as much thought as I put into my 10mm PDW... I just don't need that kind of offensive capabity in my house... I have a SG, and an AR... I'm good.

And I think Cuda is right... 9mm and 45 probably just as good... But the CMMG 45... Can shoot 45 super. Now that's cool
 
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Buy an AR pistol in 300 ACC, thinking the Springfield Saint Victor is a good choice. I'll put a red dot on it (thinking Sig Romeo) and have it for my at the ready home defense gun where I want more than a pistol (think the guys in St Louis with the mob running through their neighborhood). My AR (Sig M400) is a bit larger and heavier with a 3x9 on it, and since I like it the way it is the option is buy another AR for "crowd control". If I'm going to buy another AR I'm thinking the pistol version is a good idea, and if I'm getting the pistol version 300 ACC is a good choice as from what I read it works very well out of short barrels (my understanding it uses relatively fast burning pistol powders).

So, talk me out of the pistol AR or out of the 300 ACC. I should mention I don't really care that 300 ACC ammo isn't that available and more expensive, I'll find enough to get confident in the gun and stock up on a few hundred rounds and call it good. I'll still have a .223 and plenty of ammo for the what-if scenarios. Plus I may decide to reload.
I own a Springfield Saint Victor 300 ACC pistol.
I added furniture to Saint Victor to support home defense:
+ Ambi-safety switch
+ QD Suppressor
+ 1x25mm RedDot; 1/3 co-witness with iron sights
+ Iron sight front post Tritium
+ Scout Flashlight
+ Tactical Charging handle "gas-buster"
+ Small pistol style green laser.
+ Large foregrip hand-stop
Primary home defense ammo is Underwood 300 AAC Blackout "Subsonic" 194 Grain Lehigh Max Expansion.
Fired several brands of subsonic ammo, and all cycled (suppressed and unsuppressed) reliably except Hornady 300 Blackout 190 gr Sub-X® Subsonic. The Hornady would not lock-back consistently on last round and left excessive powder residue in receiver.
802682
 

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I wouldn’t pay LMT pricing for a pistol, since I’m not looking to print tiny groups with it I wouldn’t be willing to drop that kind of coin. Just my view anyway.
Understood.

But it's not really about printing small groups - it's about reliability and durability: both of which are results of QA/QC.
 

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Discussion Starter #28
Understood.

But it's not really about printing small groups - it's about reliability and durability: both of which are results of QA/QC.
I don't disagree with reliability, if there's a hint that a brand isn't running reliably I'll look elsewhere.

But the return-on-curve is something I'll look at. In 1911's there's a point where you're paying a lot more for very little return, such as a Dan Wesson 1911 at under 2k and a Nighthawk or Wilson Combat 1911 at 3.5k. Own or owned all of them so I'm not just speculating and the difference between a Springfield Operator (as an example) or Colt 1911 and a Dan Wesson is significant, much better parts, much better fitting. So going from 1k to 2k for the Wesson results in significant improvements, but going from 2k to 3-4k brings very little improvement for a lot of money. Don't get me wrong, I get the appeal which is why I also owned the top end 1911's, they are special. But in any item you buy the cost between excellent and the best you can buy is usually substantial while the return usually isn't.

There's a sweet spot where you get excellence for a good price and that's what I'm looking for here, if it's not Springfield I'm open. I will say their 1911's are IMO meh, so it wouldn't surprise me if their AR's are too.

I want the Glock of AR's, reliable, accurate, solid. There are better ones out there but for what you're paying it's hard to beat what you're getting. I'll look at your suggestions, again this all has to wait until the panic settles down so if Biden wins it may be years before I can buy. Trump and sometime after November.
 
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Discussion Starter #29
Oh... And my 10mm is on GB right now. I got a new truck and wat new toys... And as much thought as I put into my 10mm PDW... I just don't need that kind of offensive capabity in my house... I have a SG, and an AR... I'm good.

And I think Cuda is right... 9mm and 45 probably just as good... But the CMMG 45... Can shoot 45 super. Now that's cool
I'm sorry you're selling your 10mm, I remember how much you liked it.
 

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Discussion Starter #30
Well as usual, you can run 223 in a 8" barrel, and hot 300, or any variety that tickles you... However, ARs were designed to be rifles. 300 was designed specifically to suppress an AR.... Which yielded a really fat sub bullet. It's popularity is driven by the fact you can use same bolt and mags... Even though many don't suppress. 6.8 was designed for short barrels. Carbines. Because the military's move to carbines took performance away from 223.

So my only point is... Specific rounds designed for specific purposes. In your home... 300 gives no real advantage over 223.... Especially since both ot of a short barrel are going to be very loud and disruptive. Sure, it's a smaller package.... But if you REALLY need a something more than a pistol in your home... Then you REALLY need everything you can get. Of all fighting weapons, a carbine is a fantastic choice. And if you think 223 isn't enough... Well, 6.8 is.

They have heavier and slower... But Underwood has 300 BO at 115 gr @2300... Super fast 9mm doing 1400 ft/lbs. Subsonic is 190 gr @950 fps. That's 450ft/lbs...pistol territory. My 10mm is 135 gr doing about 16-1700 fps... 1200 ft/lbs... But it is a pistol cartridge.

I'm not saying anything is right or wrong. It's all lead I don't want to catch. But rifle rounds with rifle charges still make rifle noises. Pistol charges are a little nicer indoors. If you are getting slow rifles or fast pistol territory, pistol rounds are always friendlier... And you have posts in same caliber.

By contrast... When I went 10mm... Recoil is nothing in a heavier two handed platform. Longer barrel increases performance... And 30 rounds in a very controllable, unobnoxious, platform with weapons light and hot 357 mag performance. I can't say it's worlds better than the same in 9mm or 45 like Cuda said. A rifle cartridge in a short barrel... Don't like being next to them at the range let alone at night in my hallway.

Stuff to consider... I was rambling a page ago...
Just looking at comparisons on Federal's website, their 180gr personal defense 10mm runs at 1030 fps and 425 ft lbs. Their basic American Eagle 300 Blackout runs at 1900 fps and 1200 ft lbs, which deduct some for a shorter barrel on the 300 ACC and add some for a longer barrel on the 10mm and you're still not going to get close in performance. The 300 is a rifle cartridge as you note, and rifle cartridges are substantially better than even the best pistol cartridges (and the 10mm performance is really outstanding).

You do make a good point with the 6.8 ammo, its performance numbers are pretty significantly better than the 300 and it gets a lot better at distance. But the downside is you can't just use a standard bolt and you can't just switch barrels between a 5.56 and a 300 barrel, run the same gas setup, and you're good to go. If I buy a 300 AR all I have to do is add a 5.56 barrel and I'm shooting both. Plus if I do go suppressed the AR cycles fine with specialty suppressed ammo or any other ammo that's out there without adjustments. And honestly I wouldn't buy another piston driven AR where you have to adjust the piston to the specific ammo - it doesn't suit my needs as much as a gas impingement system that doesn't require adjustments.

If I were looking at another full size AR, or to replace my Sig which I may do one day, the 6.8 with a piston system from a top notch AR maker is very tempting, but for the "crowd control" pistol version I'm looking to add I think 300 ACC is the answer.
 

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I'm sorry you're selling your 10mm, I remember how much you liked it.
I want other toys.... And I really mean it.... After having it, it's great. But house, camper, truck gun... Ya, I just don't need it. I don't need that kind of capacity, to do that kind of work... Close quarter combat. I have pistols, and SG, and AR. More than I need. But that's just me. The AR pistols are cool....
 
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Just looking at comparisons on Federal's website, their 180gr personal defense 10mm runs at 1030 fps and 425 ft lbs. Their basic American Eagle 300 Blackout runs at 1900 fps and 1200 ft lbs, which deduct some for a shorter barrel on the 300 ACC and add some for a longer barrel on the 10mm and you're still not going to get close in performance. The 300 is a rifle cartridge as you note, and rifle cartridges are substantially better than even the best pistol cartridges (and the 10mm performance is really outstanding).

You do make a good point with the 6.8 ammo, its performance numbers are pretty significantly better than the 300 and it gets a lot better at distance. But the downside is you can't just use a standard bolt and you can't just switch barrels between a 5.56 and a 300 barrel, run the same gas setup, and you're good to go. If I buy a 300 AR all I have to do is add a 5.56 barrel and I'm shooting both. Plus if I do go suppressed the AR cycles fine with specialty suppressed ammo or any other ammo that's out there without adjustments. And honestly I wouldn't buy another piston driven AR where you have to adjust the piston to the specific ammo - it doesn't suit my needs as much as a gas impingement system that doesn't require adjustments.

If I were looking at another full size AR, or to replace my Sig which I may do one day, the 6.8 with a piston system from a top notch AR maker is very tempting, but for the "crowd control" pistol version I'm looking to add I think 300 ACC is the answer.
I don't really disagree... From what I read... I think you need 2200 to get hydrostatic shock. And it isn't going to be yes or now at a magic number... It's a continuing range. But it needs to be rifle velocities. Underwood 10mm in 135 gr does 1600 fps with 700 ft/lbs. That's a direct comparison with hot 357 mag. I'm going to get 100 more fps out of a 8". That's hot... But not rifle velocities. Trying to get any super light rounds there... I don't really like.... So any pistol weight bullet... 115gr to 230gr....going below 2000 fps... Well ya, we know the energies, we know the territory. It is what it is regardless of what gun shoots it. You are in pistol or hot magnum territory.

The AR took a really light bullet and pushed it really fast, in a relatively small cartridge, to do significant damage to "medium game" targets. So it does what it does, with rifle velocities, and making that slower is going away from what it's supposed to be.

The ease of running 300 is the sole reason it will never go away. The total opposite end of the spectrum. The heaviest bullet you can squeeze into a AR by just changing the barrel. What's not to get? Brilliant. That alone is what makes 300 win for most even though on paper there are other good choices.

Like most redos, the 6.8 has compromises. It's not perfect.... But it is a really good cartridge, and it's really good at what it was made for. And a suppressor is cool... But if I was going to stamp anything... It would be a short barrel... A 14" 6.8 or 12ga. A SBR would be cool. But ya, MHO... 6.8 is as good as it gets in a AR carbine.
 

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I realized I didn't have any pics of the setup I previously mentioned, so I went outside and took a few. Also realized I need to add two things to it: provisions for a light and a sling. The first for obvious reasons. I could probably get away with no sling for the most part; but if it ever does take over HD duties, the light will pretty much have to happen. Anyway...

802702


Pretty small package. I almost wish I'd gone with a 10" barrel, if only because I'm a pretty tall guy with long arms, and the slim part of the rail intended for a grip feels just a little too short for me. But this will fit in my truck lock box under the seat no problem. So, good times.
 

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I realized I didn't have any pics of the setup I previously mentioned, so I went outside and took a few. Also realized I need to add two things to it: provisions for a light and a sling. The first for obvious reasons. I could probably get away with no sling for the most part; but if it ever does take over HD duties, the light will pretty much have to happen. Anyway...

View attachment 802702

Pretty small package. I almost wish I'd gone with a 10" barrel, if only because I'm a pretty tall guy with long arms, and the slim part of the rail intended for a grip feels just a little too short for me. But this will fit in my truck lock box under the seat no problem. So, good times.

For your light, take a look at the Streamlight Pro TAC XL Rail Mount, and the Cloud Defensive "LCS" (tape switch mount).
The light is 1000 lumen but from streamlight they ship it with zip ties to mount the tape switch which is something I'm not doing, I found that cloud defensive switch mount and love it.
The light is at about 1:30 and the tape switch is at 12:00 on my guns.
Both pieces can be bought for under $200.00

Light

Switch mount


I use Vickers slings and have a Magpul QD mount at 9:00 near front of rail and QD receiver plate.
 

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For your light, take a look at the Streamlight Pro TAC XL Rail Mount...
^ @.45fan made a great recommendation, @MrBoxx . For me, personally, for the Streamlight products, I'd start off with an Arisaka Tailcap Adapter. At just north of $40, this adapter from Arisaka Defense rectifies what I think is the single biggest weak-point with the Streamlights: the lack of a front battery spring (which can cause the battery to bounce away from its contacts under recoil).

The problem is that with this adapter in-place and with use of a Surefire Scout (and compatible) tail-caps and remotes, you're going to be neck-and-neck with the Arisaka/Malkoff lights, and these units currently provide better performance with higher QA/QC as well as superior warranty, with arguably better form-factors (particularly if you're looking at minimal footprint/weight).

Depending on your budget, the current king-of-the-hill are offerings from Modlite and Clout Defensive. Playing the game today, at this very moment, for a HD-specific pistol/SBR or PDW, I'd favor either the Modlite PLHv2/18350 setup or the Cloud Defensive OWL (even though it will be big and bulky on a smaller gun, if you are only planning on having white-light and are unlikely to add night-vision/laser, this remains a viable option). If you've got time to wait-out, I'd see what the Cloud Defensive REIN brings in the next few.

For the budget-conscious, I'd scour the secondary market for a used Modlite PLH head or a second-hand OWL when the REIN drops. Similarly, previous-generation Surefire LEDs as well as older Malkoff heads should be readily available from guys and gals who are wanting to step up their game. Of these, let the dollar-cost/performance ratio be your guide, as you can go back several generations and still get HD-capable performance, particularly if your defensive plan doesn't involve a large property line.

For example, my previous generation M600U Scout still performs admirably in the confines of my modest home. Sure, it cannot reach out nearly as far nor punch through photonic barriers nearly as well as my Modlite OKW, but in the context in which I would employ this particular gun, I don't need it to. :cool:
 
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