[Cuda66]

The primary ammo rant being here: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/ammo-can/180297-cuda66s-defensive-ammo-commentary.html

No, this is on the idiocy of the statment:

"I (or whoever) wouldn't want to get shot by (xxx round/caliber/whatever), so therefore it must be a good choice for carry/SD/whatever".

Folks, nobody who posts in this (or any other) forum wants to get shot, period. By any caliber. By any bullet. In any flavor.

The idiocy lies in the assumption that any future assailant will feel the same way.

This is just plain stupid, folks. If one actually gives a few seconds of critical thought to the premise, the reasons why become painfully obvious.

Why do you assume that anyone who is doing something so extreme as to warrant you shooting them is rational? Why do you assume they care if they get shot? Beleive it or not, there are those folks out there who just plain don't care...for psychological and/or chemical reasons.

They aren't scared by you pulling a gun.

They aren't scared by the round striking them.

They aren't scared, period.

As soon as you being to understand this, you might start to realize that terminal performance is just as important as having a gun.

These monsters do exist. To deny this is pure naivety.

 

[Scarecrow31]

I've got to voice my agreement on this, which is why I've made a point of reading up on some of the threads I've found on choices of carry ammo. It's important to know WHY something is effective, not just that it is. Understanding is the key to making good choices. Good choices keep you alive when the SHTF.

 

[fredj338]

Yeah, totally agree Cuda. That mentality would have us all using the 22lr, after all, shot placement is king right, the 22lr is easy to shoot well & no one wants to get shot by anything right? My head hurts now, I am going to take an aspirin.

 

[Cuda66]

Yeah, totally agree Cuda. That mentality would have us all using the 22lr, after all, shot placement is king right, the 22lr is easy to shoot well & no one wants to get shot by anything right? My head hurts now, I am going to take an aspirin.

That's a bingo, Fred.

And thanks. As I may have said before...someone who's hunted dagga boys knows about these things.

(And I sooo want to...got a .416 Rigby barrel for my Encore just in case I figure out how to make it work...)

 

[fredj338]

That's a bingo, Fred.

And thanks. As I may have said before...someone who's hunted dagga boys knows about these things.

(And I sooo want to...got a .416 Rigby barrel for my Encore just in case I figure out how to make it work...)

Yeah, shot placement is king in hunting DG animals too, but most go with the old adage; "shoot the largest caliber you can be effective with". My 404j is 2 for 2 on buffalo, probably could have done that w/ a lesser round, but when you are 30ft from a big bull in tal grass, you want a 600NE!
All I can say about a 416 on an Encore, OUCH! My 404jeffery, about like the 416rigby, is comfortable in a 10# rifle, much lighter & it's not fun to shoot.

 

[zWarlord]

Biggest hole, from the fastest bullet. Thats pretty much what i go with.

 

[john_bud]

I agree with Cuda. There are people in the world that gladly welcome a firefight. They are not scared of you pulling a gun, or pointing it at them or firing rounds at or even in them. That just pisses them off. Those people live in your towns and hang out where you travel or where you go for entertainment or to fuel up or to shop. Once you have been ID'ed as a target by them, you can only stop them by making them stop. They just don't care about themselves, much less you and would just as soon spit on your crumpled body as walk by you.

The best caliber is the most powerful one that you can confidently put on target. Unfortunately, the size of the target shrinks dramatically with smaller calibers. A .25acp will stop an attacker, but you'd best be able to shoot them through the eye and into the brain because that's about the only target zone that will yield a stop! It for sure won't cause any lasting harm to a big biker wearing leather if you have to shoot him 3/4 facing you through a well muscled arm, chest and 3 layers of leather jacket!

 

[Mr Evilwrench]

Just as correlation does not equal causation, the fact that someone wouldn't want to be shot by something does not mean it would stop him if he was. If you can't nuke the bad guy from orbit, at least shoot him with the biggest thing you can. I don't pocket carry a 40mm bofors, but I figure a .45ACP will do in most circumstances.

 

[Bonehead]

so I have been reading this thread and thinking.

what if my momma is a little old lady (not really but you know), and she is generally afraid of guns though she had fun with a ruger 10/22. she has physical problems from a car wreck and would have problems with the .40.

hell there are experienced men that complain about a .40 I wouldn't put my momma through that.

what do you do?

explain wound channels to her when you buy her a 9mm and tell her to learn to deal with it or get her something smaller she would be ok with?

I mean yeah I see the point of this thread. "bring enough to do the job" is nice but there are people that can't even do a 9mm for physical reasons.

when it comes down to it if someone is coming in my mommas house I would rather her put 5 .22's or 5 .380's or whatever in them center of mass and be able to function to reload or do whatever she needs to do. my momma isn't charles bronson ya know?

 

[john_bud]

so I have been reading this thread and thinking.

what if my momma is a little old lady (not really but you know), and she is generally afraid of guns though she had fun with a ruger 10/22. she has physical problems from a car wreck and would have problems with the .40.

hell there are experienced men that complain about a .40 I wouldn't put my momma through that.

what do you do?

explain wound channels to her when you buy her a 9mm and tell her to learn to deal with it or get her something smaller she would be ok with?

I mean yeah I see the point of this thread. "bring enough to do the job" is nice but there are people that can't even do a 9mm for physical reasons.

when it comes down to it if someone is coming in my mommas house I would rather her put 5 .22's or 5 .380's or whatever in them center of mass and be able to function to reload or do whatever she needs to do. my momma isn't charles bronson ya know?

The best caliber is the most powerful one that you can confidently put on target. Unfortunately, the size of the target shrinks dramatically with smaller calibers.

Dija see my post a couple above yours?

But seriously, let's talk about your hypothetical 90 pound mamma. You could set her up with a .22lr in a revolver. Or you could get about the same felt recoil by getting her the largest heaviest hand gun she can hold and aim in a caliber like .38spl or even .44 spl (with light loads). The bigger the gun and the slower the bullet the lower the felt recoil. For that person, I would stick with revolver as racking a slide is also probably going to be too physically hard also.

By the way, my mamma was 5'2" and 101 pounds. I set her up with a 6" barreled .38 revolver. She had issues with the double action trigger, but could get it to go off. She would never have been able to rack a slide.

 

[Bonehead]

Dija see my post a couple above yours?

But seriously, let's talk about your hypothetical 90 pound mamma. You could set her up with a .22lr in a revolver. Or you could get about the same felt recoil by getting her the largest heaviest hand gun she can hold and aim in a caliber like .38spl or even .44 spl (with light loads). The bigger the gun and the slower the bullet the lower the felt recoil. For that person, I would stick with revolver as racking a slide is also probably going to be too physically hard also.

By the way, my mamma was 5'2" and 101 pounds. I set her up with a 6" barreled .38 revolver. She had issues with the double action trigger, but could get it to go off. She would never have been able to rack a slide.

she isn't hypothetical. she has bones fused in her neck with back problems and stuff from a wreck she had years ago where someone parked in the trunk of her car while in a traffic slowdown on the highway.

because of her physical issues she doesn't have a lot of strength and had difficulty managing a 10/22 while standing. she did ok at the bench though.

speaking to terminal performances I would love it if my momma was packing the kind of heat that could "take a mans head clean off" :twisted:

she isn't physically able to though. I need to find her something she can use.

 

[fredj338]

I mean yeah I see the point of this thread. "bring enough to do the job" is nice but there are people that can't even do a 9mm for physical reasons.

when it comes down to it if someone is coming in my mommas house I would rather her put 5 .22's or 5 .380's or whatever in them center of mass and be able to function to reload or do whatever she needs to do. my momma isn't charles bronson ya know?

Everyone that shoots samller calibers will justify their choice. Yes, mom is better of armed w/ a 22 she can shoot vs a 44mag she can not. Lesser caliber shooters need to understand that luck is involved in your survival in any deadly confrontation, it's just w/ lesser calibers, you are going to need more luck to resolve the problem.
I still recommend the 6 shot 38sp for newb shooters wanting a simple, effective fight stopper. Why, because it is easy to shoot well w/ minimal practice. With the right ammo, it's a good round, just like the 9mm is a good round. With the wrong ammo, it will likely get you killed, even if you do your part & deliver good hits. Oh yeah, your attacker may die after he has killed you, but that is that whole luck thing coming back aorund to bite you. I teach quite a few women to shoot, most hate semiautos, too complicated & some do struggle to get the slide going. A 4" 38sp w/ 148grWC is pretty soft shooting, makes a good hole & is dead bang simple to use. The DA trigger pull can even be bipassed & have them cock the hammer, but you can get the DA pull pretty smooth & light w/ a little work.

 

[Cuda66]

Bonehead, I'd concur with Fred on this; a full-sized, full-weight (not a lightwiegiht snub!) .38spl would be an excellent choice for your mom. A 4" S&W M10 with a 158gr semiwadcutter or wadcutter would do well, she should be able to control it, light recoil, and still an effective round.

This is also where a .410 shotgun--as in a real shotgun, not a wannabe like a Judge--has some real utility. I would likely choose a .410 pump over a .22lr in a defensive situation. If it was a .22WMR...then I'd take the rifle.

My crazy, dark-horse long gun suggestion, though, for folks who have a physical issue handling recoil is a M1 Carbine. Lightweight, accurate enough for inside the house situations, damn near recoilless, and effective.

However, the situation you bring up is a special circumstance. If your mom could handle something heavier, say a 20ga shotgun, or a 12 firing reduced recoil buck...woudl you still suggest a .22? Or if she had no problem shooting a 9mm pistol...would you still tell her a .380 would be better?

 

[Boris]

just like the 9mm is a good round. With the wrong ammo, it will likely get you killed, even if you do your part & deliver good hits

So very true fredj338. 9mm is one of the toughest calibers to pick the right projectile for. I also feel that a 230 grain 45 is more controlable than a +P 115 in 9mm. I have shot enough of both to know I can put more 230 grain 45s on target faster than the +P and higher 9mm loadings. They also tend to penetrate the least of 9mm loads.

I prefer a fullsize 45 shooting 230s over a 9mm and +P ammo anyday. My wife does not shoot nearly as much as I do but she prefers my G37 over my XD9 when loaded with carry or HD loads, even she says to me its easier to shoot the 45.

Mr. Bonehead. These fine gents offer some very valueable information. It is at the least worth looking into.

 

[john_bud]

she isn't hypothetical. she has bones fused in her neck with back problems and stuff from a wreck she had years ago where someone parked in the trunk of her car while in a traffic slowdown on the highway.

because of her physical issues she doesn't have a lot of strength and had difficulty managing a 10/22 while standing. she did ok at the bench though.

speaking to terminal performances I would love it if my momma was packing the kind of heat that could "take a mans head clean off" :twisted:

she isn't physically able to though. I need to find her something she can use.

Of course she isn't hypothetical! (you were born after all!!) Sorry to hear that she has had such a severe accident. Hope her health is improving every day.

With her physical issues, I would be cautious about both heavy recoil AND heavy weight of the firearm. Tough place to be in. You'll have to locate something light enough that she can comfortably operate it and potentially hold it on a bad guy for several minutes. (until the police get there or she gets too tired and just shoots the sob {joke}).

Can she handle a .22 mag in a pistol? Much better ballistics than a straight .22lr.

 

[Bonehead]

Of course she isn't hypothetical! (you were born after all!!) Sorry to hear that she has had such a severe accident. Hope her health is improving every day.

With her physical issues, I would be cautious about both heavy recoil AND heavy weight of the firearm. Tough place to be in. You'll have to locate something light enough that she can comfortably operate it and potentially hold it on a bad guy for several minutes. (until the police get there or she gets too tired and just shoots the sob {joke}).

Can she handle a .22 mag in a pistol? Much better ballistics than a straight .22lr.

thanks.
mom is ok she just isn't like she used to be. ya know, a .410 long gun might not be a bad idea. she had trouble with a 10/22 but I am not sure if it was her being awkward with it or physically couldn't manage.

 

[fredj338]

So very true fredj338. 9mm is one of the toughest calibers to pick the right projectile for. I also feel that a 230 grain 45 is more controlable than a +P 115 in 9mm. I have shot enough of both to know I can put more 230 grain 45s on target faster than the +P and higher 9mm loadings. They also tend to penetrate the least of 9mm loads.

I prefer a fullsize 45 shooting 230s over a 9mm and +P ammo anyday. My wife does not shoot nearly as much as I do but she prefers my G37 over my XD9 when loaded with carry or HD loads, even she says to me its easier to shoot the 45.

Mr. Bonehead. These fine gents offer some very valueable information. It is at the least worth looking into.

Depending on the gun, you are right B, I can shoot the 45acp just as fast & accurate as most 9mm, but make bigger holes doing it. While I have faith in the 9mm as a SD round, I take a lot more care in what bullets I use. In the 45acp, there are few bad loads.
A 4" K-frame S&W isn't very heavy, the DA pull can be made very smooth & light & is just not much more recoil than a 22lr using 148grWC ammo.

 

[gsh341]

As I see it, anyone that willingly chooses a .22LR as a primary carry round is just plain foolish unless that is all they can manage to carry for one reason or another. However, given the plethora of slim and concealable 9mm guns out there, the reasons are rather hard to justify.

On the other hand, if the first gun you can reach during an emergency is chambered in .22LR, it doesn't necessarily make a bad defense weapon.

For example, if you have your 9mm handgun, 12 gauge shotgun your AK-47 and AR-15 in the house in your gun cabinet/safe and your Ruger 10/22 is on the patio with you during a confrontation or home invasion, it will do a decent job of defending you while you get to your other guns.

 

[Bonehead]

4" K frame S&W in .38?

 

[gsh341]

Can she handle a .22 mag in a pistol? Much better ballistics than a straight .22lr.

If she can handle a .22WMR, then maybe she needs to look at the PMR-30.

It's 30 rounds of .22WMR in an automatic pistol.

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