Springfield XD Forum banner

1 - 17 of 17 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,963 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
Great Barrington Declaration – An open letter and declaration from public health academics and professionals

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
This is my first post here. I didn't want it to be BS... but here goes.

How's that strategy working out for the flu? It's not! Flu immunity lasts about 6 months from a flu shot we have been working on for decades.

Covid-19 immunity lasts about 3 months from what I've read, it isn't permanent like with Chicken Pox. So you get it now, 3 months after you recover you can get it again and still get sick.

The Great Barrington Declaration is effectively a life-long infringement on the personal rights of anyone with cancer or severe RA or crohn's disease or who is over age 70. They will never be safe because healthier people will all be passing this virus back and forth forever just like we do with the normal flu.

Here are our current options:
  1. Just let weakened immune system people and the elderly and the unlucky few children who develop MIS-c die off, and as people become elderly they will just die sooner than they should.
  2. Give the at-risk people a choice : live the rest of their lives in solitary confinement bubbles or risk a horrible death from Covid-19. This is the Great Barrington Declaration.
  3. Require social distancing or masks until a safe and effective vaccine is developed and forcibly re-distributed every 3 months to everyone
  4. Be responsible and universally socially distance and wear masks for just 1 month all at the same time so that there is no active virus spreading in our communities and going forward require 1 month quarantine for anyone who comes into the country from any other country that doesn't do the same thing including Americans who choose to travel to those countries.
I'm personally not ready to commit to strategy 1... many people I care about are over 70 or have diseases that put them on medication which compromises their immune system.

Option 2 is a severe and permanent infringement on the rights of many people, but the most important of these in my view are the elderly. Most of these people lived their whole lives contributing to society, many of them VFW, with the reasonable expectation that they would be able to enjoy their golden years in peace doing... whatever the hell they want. Now society is going to tell them that they have to spend their time in a bubble even if they did all the right things and are otherwise healthy because young healthy people are too selfish to wear a mask or socially distance?

Option 3. Do you really think you are going to force everyone to take a vaccine? Is that not an infringement on their rights? If not everyone does, then it doesn't protect anyone. The Flu vaccine we have been administering for decades still only works for 6 months before you are no longer immune. A rapidly developed, first time ever Covid-19 vaccine isn't going to be more effective than that, and it's pretty obvious Covid doesn't care what time of year it is. Are you ready to surrender your body to science every 3 months? Take whatever they put in that shot? Just trust that they aren't doing anything nefarious or reckless with your body?

Option 4 infringes on the least amount of personal freedom and gets us back to normal except for people choosing to travel here from other countries. Social distancing sucks. Wearing a mask sucks. Do any of those other options actually suck less? This does require a coordinated national effort, we can argue the constitutionality after the fact. But if done correctly it is really only for 1 month. 2 weeks to make sure incubation is done, 2 more weeks just to be sure nothing is still being passed around inside family circles.

Option 4 also encourages a much more strict border control strategy, something we need anyway.

Why hasn't social distancing and mask wearing worked so far? Because there are a ton of people not doing it, and because we haven't all done it at the same time. Do it right or just choose option 1 and stop talking about it. Option 1 is what god/nature/whatever intended anyway. Humans historically find ways around the natural order of things, so let's stop looking for the easy way to avoid being temporarily uncomfortable and instead do the hard work that actually solves the problem.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3,372 Posts
Option 4 doesn't work even with 100% compliance. It's a failed theory, proven to be wrong.

Sorry.

It's nice that you tried to reason it out though.

Option 5 per Kristi Noem:

816892


For the most part leave people alone to do what they think is best for them.

You can't stop a virus. It's hubris to think you have that kind of power.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
17,695 Posts
If masks work...then why do people need flu shots?
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
If masks work...then why do people need flu shots?
Most people don't need flu shots. We push flu shots because we expect people to be irresponsible about their hygiene and to not be enabled to stay home from work when they have symptoms.

In years where the scientists guess correctly about which strains to target the flu shot is only 40-60% effective. Most years it is on the lower end. This is after many years of research on flu viruses and vaccinations.

A properly worn N95 mask filters 95% of the particles out of the air the wearer is breathing, that's what N95 certifies. Virus doesn't travel by itself, it has to be carried by particles or droplets. That means 95% of the virus-carrying particles just don't make it to the wearer, if they wear it properly. They don't protect other people because they have vents that typically don't do any filtering of your exhaled air. If they filtered the exhaled air it would cause positive pressure under the mask which would break the seal making it less than 95% effective. Vulnerable populations should be issued N95 masks.

Properly worn cloth face coverings like surgical masks help protect the wearer in varying amounts but are not certified for personal protection like N95 masks. They have been shown to be up to 100% effective at protecting everyone else around them. That's why they are worn by surgeons. Non-vulnerable populations should be issued and strongly encouraged to properly wear cloth face coverings when social distancing is impossible.

Social distancing is better than nothing, but masks are more realistic and effective. A cough or sneeze can linger or be blown by the wind, 20 feet has been shown possible. If that cough or sneeze is caught by a mask that doesn't happen.

You can't make anyone do anything, but if they choose to not take precautions to be safe then they are a danger to everyone around them.

An N95 mask is a flak-jacket. The wearer is protected and its cheaper than removing bullets after the fact.
A surgical mask is proper trigger discipline. Everyone is safer and it costs next to nothing.
Social distancing is more like background checks. Sure... it makes people safer but only if everyone does it.

But those are really the only tools we have right now.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
1,691 Posts
99.9999% of people don’t wear mask correctly therefore wind up causing a larger potential for infection than if they didn’t wear it all all. So an n95/99 mask won’t help one bit. Hence the cdc’s discover that 85% of people infected with covid were wearing masks.

Besides, you know we have idiots in government.. like Newsom.. who tells people to remove Their masks to take a bite and put it back on. Yup.. touch your potentially contaminated mask, eat, put it back on. Idiots.

If anything a face covering MIGHT protect someone around you if YOU are infected but not stop you from getting infected.

Quite frankly.. masks are stupid and some form of social distancing would be better.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
I agree 100% with Piratesailor, it's scary how many people don't understand how to wear a mask effectively. There is no single thing that fixes this. Needs comprehensive mitigation.

I did some thinking about how to relate vaccines and the best I can come up with is the thumb safety on a 1911.

It's likely to marginally make things safer, but is no replacement for trigger discipline and certainly not background checks.

It's also likely to get some people killed in the process because they think it makes them safer than it does.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,624 Posts
For the most part leave people alone to do what they think is best for them.

You can't stop a virus. It's hubris to think you have that kind of power.
See.... There's this virus called smallpox....

Maybe you should look into that.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,624 Posts
R
If masks work...then why do people need flu shots?
Do you see anyone wearing masks for flu? If people took the same precautions for flu... We would have a lot less flu.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,624 Posts
Most people don't need flu shots. We push flu shots because we expect people to be irresponsible about their hygiene and to not be enabled to stay home from work when they have symptoms.

In years where the scientists guess correctly about which strains to target the flu shot is only 40-60% effective. Most years it is on the lower end. This is after many years of research on flu viruses and vaccinations.

A properly worn N95 mask filters 95% of the particles out of the air the wearer is breathing, that's what N95 certifies. Virus doesn't travel by itself, it has to be carried by particles or droplets. That means 95% of the virus-carrying particles just don't make it to the wearer, if they wear it properly. They don't protect other people because they have vents that typically don't do any filtering of your exhaled air. If they filtered the exhaled air it would cause positive pressure under the mask which would break the seal making it less than 95% effective. Vulnerable populations should be issued N95 masks.

Properly worn cloth face coverings like surgical masks help protect the wearer in varying amounts but are not certified for personal protection like N95 masks. They have been shown to be up to 100% effective at protecting everyone else around them. That's why they are worn by surgeons. Non-vulnerable populations should be issued and strongly encouraged to properly wear cloth face coverings when social distancing is impossible.

Social distancing is better than nothing, but masks are more realistic and effective. A cough or sneeze can linger or be blown by the wind, 20 feet has been shown possible. If that cough or sneeze is caught by a mask that doesn't happen.

You can't make anyone do anything, but if they choose to not take precautions to be safe then they are a danger to everyone around them.

An N95 mask is a flak-jacket. The wearer is protected and its cheaper than removing bullets after the fact.
A surgical mask is proper trigger discipline. Everyone is safer and it costs next to nothing.
Social distancing is more like background checks. Sure... it makes people safer but only if everyone does it.

But those are really the only tools we have right now.
OK..... Not stop right there. You don't Understand N95 masks at all. N95 masks filer 95% of a certain particle size. Dust. They are dust masks. Never, nowhere, ever, will any producer claim Any protection of the wearer from viruses... All of which are much smaller than dust. If a "droplet" can remain air borne, then it is very small, and again not dust. So, either droplets fall out of air, or they are too small to be filtered by a dust mask.

In order to be protected from viruses, you need HEPA filters, not dust masks. Positive pressure powered air is great, which also need HEPA rated filtration.

And no... The majority of dust masks do no have exhale ports. You breath out the mask, which is designed, and sized, to pass enough air without Significant restriction.... Because... Well, you have to breath in through them. That's the important part... Breathing in... To protect the wearer, from large particulates... Dust.

The whole point of wearing masks was never to protect the werearer... Ever. It is to contain the spread from the wearer... Who may be asymptomatic, but still exhales matter to their surounding.... Therefore protecting those around the wearer by catching large droplets exhaled by the wearer. And... It's exactly why, all the "experts" say don't wear masks with exhale ports, because its defeating the whole point of why people should wear masks.

Now, effectiveness is debatable. A huge number of factors of materials and methods of wear and hygiene of wearer. That's for protection FROM the wearer TO others. But it's best we can do, and it does indeed minimize the spread, from those INFECTED to those that are NOT.

However, protection OF the wearer, wearing a dust mask, FROM others... Well, theoretically... Best guess is some number other than ZERO. Personally, I assign about a 0.01% effectiveness against viruses. YMMV. But it sure as hell is NOT 95%.
 
  • Like
Reactions: Fairbanks007

·
Registered
Joined
·
19 Posts
"Respiratory droplets, all droplets generated by an expiratory event—coughing, sneezing, laughing, talking, breathing—have diameters d that cover a large size range from approximately 0.6 to more than 1000 µm. "
- Dynamics of infectious disease transmission by inhalable respiratory droplets

The coronavirus is said to be about .125 microns, but the droplets it rides on are much larger than that. 0.3 microns is the size that N95 masks are tested against, which is smaller than the smallest respiratory droplets according to that research article.

3M does suggest that their masks may be effective against viruses and bacteria, but they also say masks reduce exposure, but don't prevent it entirely.
3M N95 FAQ
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
15,624 Posts
OSHA and other government agencies have not established safe exposure limits for biological agents. Respirators may help reduce exposures to airborne biological contaminants, but they don’t eliminate the risk of exposure, infection, illness, or death.

They won't say how effective they are, just that it should all be the same...

And filter effectiveness is completely dependent on fit, and producers and OSHA/NIOSH all say users should all have fit test. Studies show fit test failure rates up to 80% in real world. Not to mention that is on a clean shaven face. Who have you seen get a fit test during this pandemic? Do you even know where to get one?

True protection for wearer would be from full face respirators that protect 1000 fold better than dust masks. But nobody is suggesting that....

Fact is, expecting a N95 dust mask to protect you from viruses is hoping at best. You may get lucky, but that's about it. If you are following all rules for respirator use and in the best conditions, it may fair better.

But the fact remains..
Masks are not mandated for wearers, they are being recommended for stopping spread from infected. And even for health care providers... There are better options for nasty bugs than dust or surgical masks... Who's primary benefit is protecting patients from providers, and protecting providers from blood squirting in their mouth from patients. That's what they are for. Period.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
7,801 Posts
Masks are useless and just a control the sheeple angle for those who want to control you sheeple with fear and mis information.


Worked every day since day one of this dempanic.


Overreaction is an understatement.


I heard it on msm and read it on FB so it absolutely must be truth.



A full bio suit will protect you from pathogens anything less is ****ing BS.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
1 - 17 of 17 Posts
Top