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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
I have some 9mm once shot brass that has been roll crimped from the factory, Lellier and Bellot brand. Can I safely use this brass like normal and taper crimp it when I reload it?
 

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I have some 9mm once shot brass that has been roll crimped from the factory, Lellier and Bellot brand. Can I safely use this brass like normal and taper crimp it when I reload it?

Never seen a 9mm round with a roll crimp. In older days you could apply a very light roll crimp on a .45 ACP case that would still allow it to headspace on the case-mouth as it should.

But yeah, provided your Sellier & Bellot cases are brass, they are reloadable. I'm even kinda partial to them myself because they seem very uniform compared to some other brands. They have tight primer pockets that many complain about, but I'm not one of them and I mostly prime with a LEE AutoPrime where it's easy to detect the greater pressure req'd to seat a primer in an S&B case. The primer pocket being tight just means it will stay that way longer, IMO. When you have loose primer pockets it's time to start considering retiring your cases. I would not load steel cases of any kind and never will until brass cases are not available. Hopefully, that day will never come.

Pass a magnet over the cases. I'd say pass it over just a few samples, but I have heard of guys finding steel cases mixed in with brass ones in S&B factory loads. The 9 X 19mm should be taper crimped. ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
The roll crimp is half way down the brass, its not on the case mouth where it gets taper crimped. I know this part of the brass where it is roll crimped will be well inside the chamber of the gun to contain pressures, but I have never seen this either in the 9MM.
 

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The roll crimp is half way down the brass, its not on the case mouth where it gets taper crimped. I know this part of the brass where it is roll crimped will be well inside the chamber of the gun to contain pressures, but I have never seen this either in the 9MM.
That's properly termed a case cannelure. It's applied to the case area @ the base of the bullet to reduce the possibility of bullet setback. I've seen no strong, informed opinion about reloading cannelured brass, so I don't.
 

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That's properly termed a case cannelure. It's applied to the case area @ the base of the bullet to reduce the possibility of bullet setback. I've seen no strong, informed opinion about reloading cannelured brass, so I don't.
O.K., here's a strong, informed opinion: There's no difference in loading cannelured brass than loading non-cannelured brass. How's that?

I douibt that the OP's S&B brass has been roll crimped. Whatever's been done to the mouth is largely irrelevant, isn't it? ;)
 

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The roll crimp is half way down the brass, its not on the case mouth where it gets taper crimped. I know this part of the brass where it is roll crimped will be well inside the chamber of the gun to contain pressures, but I have never seen this either in the 9MM.

Thanks for clearing that up, the thread title kinda had me scratchin' my head. As you're picking up brass at the range, you're bound to end up with some that has a case cannelure and it's there for the reason that pell stated. Mainly used for defense loads to prevent set-back, or for match ammo. It is perfectly reloadable but I wouldn't say that there's absolutely no difference from non cannelured brass. If the cannelure is halfway down the case, I'm guessing it was a 124 gr. factory load originally. So long as you load a similar or lighter bullet where the bullet base doesn't go below the cannelure you're positively fine. If you were loading a 147 gr. jacketed bullet, that's gonna be a tad different because the bullet's base is gonna end up below the case cannelure, most likely, and somethings gotta give, meaning the case's inner ring created by the cannelure. The case is gonna try to swell at that point. Not saying that I haven't done it because I have, plenty of times. But, there is one situation where I would avoid using a longer/heavier bullet than the cannelure was placed for and that would be in any self defense type handloads where I just wouldn't take any chances as far as functioning. ;)
 

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Though the cannelure was used originally to prevent setback, and this practice goes waaaay back to early smokeless rounds, I have read several opinions lately that it is used more for identification of brass types by the factory than for setback. If you look inside the case and cannot notice intrusion from the cannelure marks, then it would be more suspicious regarding setback. Either way, such brass reloads as well as any other and should not be discarded if all else seems fine with it like no cracks, or splits, good primer pockets, and good extractor rim uniformity.

What 57K said may still apply, and on some brass a bullet that intrudes below the cannelure should be observed and tested in your chamber. Many plated, coated, and plain lead bullets will give a sort of "hour glass" shape to any loaded brass, but if they still fit in your chamber it's all good.

Oh... and ALL factory rounds intended for auto pistols are TAPER CRIMPED and yours should be too.
 

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… How's that?
...
Well, it's a strong opinion … but 57k and JSG provide background and informed discussion.

My concern is that the case cannelure may create an internal constriction similar to the thread constriction @ revolver barrels. This may be an unnoticeable .001 or .002. Suppose, then, that your bullet seats within that constriction and you now have added case tension on the bullet. Now you have a brass resource with an additional case tension variable.

Probably not a big problem, but I don't have any difficulty finding non-cannelured cases for reloading so I discard canneluered cases. Same with nickel plated cases.
 

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Though the cannelure was used originally to prevent setback, and this practice goes waaaay back to early smokeless rounds, I have read several opinions lately that it is used more for identification of brass types by the factory than for setback ...
JSG
First, I'm NOT being argumentative or challenging your assertion, but I was unaware that a variety of handgun brass types were available in the ammo/reloading industry. Brands, yes, but types?

More to your comment, though, the OP's question brought to mind some Underwood 45LC that I have. It's 300gr XTP @ 1300fps and is case-cannelured … prime candidate for bullet setback, huh? Well, interestingly enough, their current incarnation of that product is not case-cannelured.
 

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Hiya Pell... I do not take your comment as argumentative, as the first time I heard of this I too was a bit skeptical.

Many things on the internet are to be regarded suspiciously, but after seeing this several times and asking some people at Starline about it, I have come to the conclusion that some brass is indeed of a different "type" in that it has a different formulation in order to withstand, for instance, +p pressures better with some loadings, or deal with other factors like heat. It is still good for general reloading, though it may be less malleable, but may be slightly more expensive initially for the factories than general purpose brass (who knows but that volume may eliminate the difference). I am not saying all companies do this, or that general purpose brass is weak... far from it, as some companies just might employ higher tension brass for ALL their cases, and "normal" brass has proven to be "good enough" over time, but it seems to be true that there are different formulations out there. I have only more recently discovered that the cannelure may be an indication of this. If this is wrong and I discover it, I will report back and say so, but for now that is my opinion based on what I consider fairly reliable sources.
 

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Hiya Pell... I do not take your comment as argumentative, as the first time I heard of this I too was a bit skeptical.

Many things on the internet are to be regarded suspiciously, but after seeing this several times and asking some people at Starline about it, I have come to the conclusion that some brass is indeed of a different "type" in that it has a different formulation in order to withstand, for instance, +p pressures better with some loadings, or deal with other factors like heat. It is still good for general reloading, though it may be less malleable, but may be slightly more expensive initially for the factories than general purpose brass (who knows but that volume may eliminate the difference). I am not saying all companies do this, or that general purpose brass is weak... far from it, as some companies just might employ higher tension brass for ALL their cases, and "normal" brass has proven to be "good enough" over time, but it seems to be true that there are different formulations out there. I have only more recently discovered that the cannelure may be an indication of this. If this is wrong and I discover it, I will report back and say so, but for now that is my opinion based on what I consider fairly reliable sources.

Hey, JSG, Starline is a good example regarding 9mm brass. If you check their website, I believe that they state that the only difference between their 9 X 19mm brass and their 9 X 19mm +P brass is the headstamp for easier identification for those who load +P. That can certainly be confirmed with an email to them. Since the former pressure rating for the 9 X 19mm was 35,700 CUP that's pretty close when measured in PSI to the current +P limit of 38,500 PSI, I don't know of anyone that has changed their brass from the way it was constructed for the 35,700 CUP MAX. Pressure rating.

If you load both light and very high velocity loads including +P, the slightly higher price for the brass with a +P headstamp is worthwhile, IMO, so that the fired cases can be segregated from one to the other.

Not exactly what I do personally because I started loading 9 X 19mm while the pressure rating was 35,700 CUP and my defense loads today are very similar, just updated with better powders and I don't do a lot of light loading. I've never been able to perceive any difference in brass from the 35,700 CUP days to how they're currently manufactured except for a few where you'll find slightly thinner case-walls. ;)
 

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Hi K... My recollections seem to include some differences in the formulations for 45 Super and Rowland brass to the regular 45 Auto brass. I could be wrong, but that is my recollection. Again, if I find out differently I will post something about it.
 

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Hi K... My recollections seem to include some differences in the formulations for 45 Super and Rowland brass to the regular 45 Auto brass. I could be wrong, but that is my recollection. Again, if I find out differently I will post something about it.
Starline says:

45ACP +P
The 45 Auto+P is a strengthened version of the 45 Auto with the same external dimensions. A thicker web and heavier sidewall at base strengthens the case in potentially unsupported areas. This case has approximately 2 grains less internal water capacity than the standard 45 Auto.

45Super
45 Super* is the same externally as the 45 Auto, but has a thicker web, denser grain structure in the metal, and special heat treat process that enhances the durability of the case.

460 Rowland
The .460 Rowland is a lengthened, heavy duty .45 Auto based case designed by Johnny Rowland.

The only hint to a different brass type is @ 45Super's "denser grain structure". But, if I remember correctly, grain structure can be modified by heat treatment. So the "denser grain structure" could be a different brass type or a particular annealing regimen.
 

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Well, it's a strong opinion … but 57k and JSG provide background and informed discussion.

My concern is that the case cannelure may create an internal constriction similar to the thread constriction @ revolver barrels. This may be an unnoticeable .001 or .002. Suppose, then, that your bullet seats within that constriction and you now have added case tension on the bullet. Now you have a brass resource with an additional case tension variable.

Probably not a big problem, but I don't have any difficulty finding non-cannelured cases for reloading so I discard canneluered cases. Same with nickel plated cases.
I'm a class 06 manufacturer. I don't just speculate in threads like this, as I understand the importance of safe reloading. I provided you with correct information. Do with it as you wish. :cool: Blathering on for 1000 words, when 50 words would have sufficed isn't reflective of either high intellect or a knowledge of a subject being discussed. :mrgreen:
 

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I'm a class 06 manufacturer. I don't just speculate in threads like this, as I understand the importance of safe reloading. I provided you with correct information. Do with it as you wish. :cool: Blathering on for 1000 words, when 50 words would have sufficed isn't reflective of either high intellect or a knowledge of a subject being discussed. :mrgreen:

So, if someone has a driver's license, we're supposed to ASSume they're a safe driver?

You've bitched about long threads on a number of occasions. Since you're reading them rather than ignoring them, what exactly would that be indicative of?

I'm somebody, so everything I post in one or two sentences should be adhered to! LOL

Funny how some only consider their personal egos while the real objective here should be to help those of lesser experience. Some of them actually do appreciate thorough detail, I can guarantee you that from the number of PMs I get. If it's just a matter of being too lazy to type about a subject you believe you have extensive experience with, why bother? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #16 ·
Ive been busy since I started this thread. It was 147gr FMJ's that were in these cases. I told my friend to go buy some 9mm Luger before he came over to shoot up all my ammo, "and make sure its brass". He came back with a couple boxes of those.
 

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Ive been busy since I started this thread. It was 147gr FMJ's that were in these cases. I told my friend to go buy some 9mm Luger before he came over to shoot up all my ammo, "and make sure its brass". He came back with a couple boxes of those.

ODS, since the cases were cannelured for 147 gr. FMJ, lighter bullets can be used, or 147 gr. JHPs depending on what OACL your pistol's chamber will allow, so long as the case-wall thicknesses are similar and you're getting adequate tension on the bullet. You can test that by pushing the nose of the bullets in your handloads into the table-top of your reloading bench and confirming that the bullets don't set-back. ;)
 

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What does the reloading manuals have to say about reloading cannelured cases? I don't recall any warnings about reloading cannelured cases in any of my manuals, but it's been a few years since I've reloaded.
 

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What does the reloading manuals have to say about reloading cannelured cases? I don't recall any warnings about reloading cannelured cases in any of my manuals, but it's been a few years since I've reloaded.

Jace1, I'd have to do some digging myself because I don't remember reading much on the subjet either. I have loaded bullets that are heavier/longer than what the cannelure was placed for. It can be done but the case will try to swell obviously. That's why I mentioned that I wouldn't do that with any load where 100% function is an absolute must, such as a defense load. ;)
 

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Every round with a cannelure I have reload the same as brass without it. Some have been shot so many times there is barely a mark left where the cannelure once was


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