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I just stopped in for my first visit to a Bass Pro Shops and checked out the ammo section. My jaw hit the floor when I saw the price of my usual CCW ammo, Remington Golden Saber 9mm +P 124 Grain Brass Jacketed Hollow Point going for $32 a box. I've had great results with the Winchester PDX1 +P 124 gr jhp ammo so I picked up some of those for $21.45 a box. I've heard good things about both of these ammo's and both work very well in my XDM Compact 9mm and both are very accurate. What are you guys using for CCW and why is the Golden Sabers price going up like the price at the gas pump? Any idea?
 

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I have no idea. I just picked up a box of .45acp Golder Sabers at BPS on Friday and was annoyed to pay more than I did last time. IIRC it was 36 bucks this go round. I have no idea why they are so expensive. Maybe because we keep paying it??:rolleyes:
 

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I have no idea. I just picked up a box of .45acp Golder Sabers at BPS on Friday and was annoyed to pay more than I did last time. IIRC it was 36 bucks this go round. I have no idea why they are so expensive. Maybe because we keep paying it??:rolleyes:
holy cow thats expensive! in my area i can get corbon DPX cheaper than that.
I use speer gold dot though
 

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Yes, it is way too expensive. That's why I also picked up some Hornady Critical Defense at the same time to try out. They were 22 clams for 20. They were out of the Remmy Ultimate Home Defense or I'd have gotten some of those as well. BPS is just not the best place to get ammo, but I didn't have time to drive to Cabelas.
 

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Go with the PDX-1 or the Golden Sabers (BTW--Rem UHD is just a repackaged Golden Saber). Skip the Hornady CD--it's an overpriced, underperforming gimmick round with a bad track record, reliability-wise.

The 124+P's will work, but if your gun likes them, you may find you are better served by a standard velocity 147gr bullet in either of those lines. The generally have less recoil, and will do the exact same job as the 124+P's in regards to terminal performance.

I recommend reading this: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
 

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I found the CD's to be cheaper than everything else in the store save the Ultimate Defense for the exact same price....so I never saw overpriced. From what I am seeing, it is a small vocal group here that is having troubles with them. Other reports and critical reviews don't mirror what I read here. I'm not saying they are good or not, I just bought some to try. I am also talking .45acp as well. Completely different animal than 9mm. I would not use them in 9mm as I prefer heavy slugs. As to gimmick, polymer expansion plugs are used in many many different rounds for a long time....so I don't see the gimmick. I see tried and proven tech applied to a new application. Every expansion test I have seen has been positive. I will reserve my opinion until I try them out.


OP, for my 9mm's, I use Speer Gold Dot 124g's almost exclusively. They are cheap enough and usually easy to find. Win SXT's and Hydra Shocks have also done well for me in 9mm. I have not used the PDX's in 9mm, just .45acp and I didn't like them....but then I shot them in a G36. They are a tad hot for that pistol in my hands. I have no doubts they would perform well in a heavier pistol. I'd say if you like the PDX's, stay with them. FWIW, Natchez has them on sale this month for 19.95 a box.
 

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I found the CD's to be cheaper than everything else in the store save the Ultimate Defense for the exact same price....so I never saw overpriced. From what I am seeing, it is a small vocal group here that is having troubles with them. Other reports and critical reviews don't mirror what I read here. I'm not saying they are good or not, I just bought some to try. I am also talking .45acp as well. Completely different animal than 9mm. I would not use them in 9mm as I prefer heavy slugs. As to gimmick, polymer expansion plugs are used in many many different rounds for a long time....so I don't see the gimmick. I see tried and proven tech applied to a new application. Every expansion test I have seen has been positive. I will reserve my opinion until I try them out.


OP, for my 9mm's, I use Speer Gold Dot 124g's almost exclusively. They are cheap enough and usually easy to find. Win SXT's and Hydra Shocks have also done well for me in 9mm. I have not used the PDX's in 9mm, just .45acp and I didn't like them....but then I shot them in a G36. They are a tad hot for that pistol in my hands. I have no doubts they would perform well in a heavier pistol. I'd say if you like the PDX's, stay with them. FWIW, Natchez has them on sale this month for 19.95 a box.
.45 HCD is 185gr, which is NOT heavy for caliber (and is also why they underpenetrate). As for the noseplug--yeah, in rifle bullets...which move a heck of a lot faster than handgun bullets.

As for reliability--was just a post on another forum I frequent where someone had 4 bad primers in one box of recently manufactured HCD...that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Your gun, your choice...but I have yet to see any evidence showing HCD to be a good defensive round.
 

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.45 HCD is 185gr, which is NOT heavy for caliber (and is also why they underpenetrate). As for the noseplug--yeah, in rifle bullets...which move a heck of a lot faster than handgun bullets.

As for reliability--was just a post on another forum I frequent where someone had 4 bad primers in one box of recently manufactured HCD...that doesn't exactly inspire confidence.

Your gun, your choice...but I have yet to see any evidence showing HCD to be a good defensive round.
CD ballistics on 185's are almost the same as 185g Gold Dots. They are actually closer to the ballistics on the GD 230g. With GD's, the 185's are actually moving faster and imparting more energy to the target. So, with that in mind, how can they penetrate less? If the plug doesn't expand as intended, which has not been proven, they would actually penetrate the same as FMJ, yes? That would mean they would penetrate MORE. IMO, its a someone said this and that deal and haven't backed it up....yet or that I have seen. By all accounts, its hearsay.

Now primer issues are a concern. From what I am seeing, its light strikes that are the issue. Some pistols don't like them at all. Fine, don't use them. It doesn't mean they are crap, it means that pistol doesn't like them. As to whether my Glock will like them or not has yet to be determined. I expect it will since it has a hard strike. If it doesn't, I won't use them.

As you said...my gun, my choice. I'll make up my own mind based on my own tests. I do appreciate input, though.
http://www.hornady.com/store/45-ACP-185-gr-Critical-Defense/
 

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CD ballistics on 185's are almost the same as 185g Gold Dots. They are actually closer to the ballistics on the GD 230g. With GD's, the 185's are actually moving faster and imparting more energy to the target. So, with that in mind, how can they penetrate less? If the plug doesn't expand as intended, which has not been proven, they would actually penetrate the same as FMJ, yes? That would mean they would penetrate MORE. IMO, its a someone said this and that deal and haven't backed it up....yet or that I have seen. By all accounts, its hearsay.

Now primer issues are a concern. From what I am seeing, its light strikes that are the issue. Some pistols don't like them at all. Fine, don't use them. It doesn't mean they are crap, it means that pistol doesn't like them. As to whether my Glock will like them or not has yet to be determined. I expect it will since it has a hard strike. If it doesn't, I won't use them.

As you said...my gun, my choice. I'll make up my own mind based on my own tests. I do appreciate input, though.
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: 45 Auto :: 45 Auto 185 gr Critical Defense®
How do lighter, faster bullets penetrate less than heavier, slower bullets?

It's quite easy--sectional density and momentum.

Assuming that both expand to the same diameter, the heavier bullet has more mass to keep the bullet moving; the lighter bullet will be slowed faster, leading to less penetration.

Think about it...which would be harder to catch--a baseball dropped from 50 feet, or a 5lb cannonball (about the same diameter as a baseball) dropped from 5 feet? Which is going to be easier to slow down?

FWIW, kinetic energy really doesn't mean squat when it comes to terminal ballistics. Penetration depth and permanent wound channel size mean pretty much everything (given proper placement, of course). You can have a warp-speed, lightweight screamer with 600 foot pounds, but if it just blows up shallow and doesn't punch deep enough to get to the vitals, it ain't gonna do much good against a determined attacker.

As for the 185gr bullets...about the only 185 that really gets the nod these days is the Barnes/DPX bullets--being all copper, they do better than traditional JHP's. personally, I grew severely disenchanted with 185gr .45's when I saw a Silvertip fail to penetrate through a large canine's shoulder.

If you haven't read the link I posted above, I recommend it; it's got a lot of good info from someone who knows a hell of a lot more about this stuff than I do, and does it professionally as well.
 

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Go with the PDX-1 or the Golden Sabers (BTW--Rem UHD is just a repackaged Golden Saber). Skip the Hornady CD--it's an overpriced, underperforming gimmick round with a bad track record, reliability-wise.

The 124+P's will work, but if your gun likes them, you may find you are better served by a standard velocity 147gr bullet in either of those lines. The generally have less recoil, and will do the exact same job as the 124+P's in regards to terminal performance.

I recommend reading this: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
Your last sentence is so very correct. I have shot more than a few deer with the 124 +P GS and 147 GS. In no way shape or form did the 124 +P perform any better other than more recoil. I have not even began to start testing PDX1 yet and it would take me 10 years before I came to a conclusion anyway. I am in the middle of HST testing, then maybe PDX1 lol......
 

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CD ballistics on 185's are almost the same as 185g Gold Dots. They are actually closer to the ballistics on the GD 230g. With GD's, the 185's are actually moving faster and imparting more energy to the target. So, with that in mind, how can they penetrate less? If the plug doesn't expand as intended, which has not been proven, they would actually penetrate the same as FMJ, yes? That would mean they would penetrate MORE. IMO, its a someone said this and that deal and haven't backed it up....yet or that I have seen. By all accounts, its hearsay.

Now primer issues are a concern. From what I am seeing, its light strikes that are the issue. Some pistols don't like them at all. Fine, don't use them. It doesn't mean they are crap, it means that pistol doesn't like them. As to whether my Glock will like them or not has yet to be determined. I expect it will since it has a hard strike. If it doesn't, I won't use them.

As you said...my gun, my choice. I'll make up my own mind based on my own tests. I do appreciate input, though.
Hornady Manufacturing Company :: Ammunition :: Handgun :: Choose by Caliber :: 45 Auto :: 45 Auto 185 gr Critical Defense®
You do know that energy has little to nothing to do with penetration? That is a product of the bullets shape & mass during penetration. It's called sectional density. The higher the SD#, the deeper it's potential for penetration. All things being the same, a 185gr bullet can NOT penetrate as deeply as a 230gr bullet in 45 regardless of velocity achieved. it's all about bullet construction. It's why FMJ always penetrate further than identical wt JHP. Once the bullet expands, secden is reduced significantly. IMO, the Hornady 185grXTP is a better bullet than the CD. It doesn't expand as much, penetrates further, as much as some 230grJHP that go 75cal. The 185grXTP may only make 65cal, but that is still a big hole going very deep.
 

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Discussion Starter #12
Just went to Gander Mountain in Roanoke today and saw the Golden Sabers listed for $39 a box. I took you guys advice and went with the Winchester PDX1 147 gr JHP for $22 a box. Haven't had a chance to try them out yet, but I'm looking forward to some more range time.
 

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HCD sucks. Shot a box yesterday morning in my S&W Model 10 six gun. 1/3 of the box had bad primers. Will never use. Its one of the few HD rounds available in .38spl in non +p.
 

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HCD sucks. Shot a box yesterday morning in my S&W Model 10 six gun. 1/3 of the box had bad primers. Will never use. Its one of the few HD rounds available in .38spl in non +p.
With .38, sometimes it's better to go with the tried & true over the latest & greatest.

Look for a 158gr SWCHP bullet; that, or Fiocchi makes a standard .38spl load using the Hornady 125gr XTP JHP...that would also do well out of your 5" barreled Smith.
 
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