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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Alright I'm ready. Any feedback, pro's / con's, stories? Does anybody have either? Any PTR's with scopes and how hard were they to install. I could use any & all help and guidance. Thanks
 

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You're comparing apples to lawn mowers.

The PTR-91 is top notch all the way across the board. It is a high end G3/HK91 clone, and should perform w/o issues.

The Fulton Arms is an AR15 design with all the AR15 design pros/cons.

That Titan looks sicks. DROOL.
Yeah, real sick, indeed
 

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I have have both styles. Here is my main issue, SCOPE MOUNTING.

If you are anal and obsessive about scope mounting, maintaining zero etc get the Fulton. It has the correct spec picitiny (sp?) rail on it's DPMS supplied upper reciever and used with a good quality mount and scope you cant go rong just like any other AR style rifle in any caliber.

The PTR is one of the best clones of the HK rifle. They do sell some of the newer ones with welded rails on the upper reciever for scope mounting. If you dont get one of those you are going to be introduced to the world of CLAW mounting and it's resistance to staying put!

Like the above poster said, both style rifles are completely different in operating systems. I would never put any money on ANY HK or clone to out MOA a good AR scoped rifle (dont even get me started on the $10,000 PSG1).
Here is my love/hate project. Springfield Armory SAR8 with the dreaded DC Industries reciever.
 

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You're comparing apples to lawn mowers.
NO KIDDING!!!

It is not fair to compare a battle rifle clone like the PTR-91 to a precision target rifle like the Titan. Aside from sheer rugged reliability, cost and cost of mags, the Titan wins hands down...but again, you are trying to compare a $900 battle rifle capable of 2.5-3MOA average accuracy out of the box with a $2K+ target rifle capable of MOA or better accuracy.

As for scope mounting...while scoping a PTR can be difficult, it is not impossible, nor will you have problems with the claw lock mount if it is not a knock off and it is mounted properly. If you don't want to go the claw lock mount, there are some great options for a clamp-on picatinny rail such as the B&T rail and the MFI, which will allow you to use and standard picatinny/weaver rings and accessories. Also, if you want to make a closer comparison between the Titan and an HK clone, look at the PTR MSG-91 Perimeter rifle which is a heavier target version of the PTR-91 with a Magpul adjustable stock, railed forend, and welded picatinney receiver scope rail. There are reports of these rifles being MOA or better capable with match ammo out of the box. The only one I have fired was at least capable of MOA accuracy with the BH 168gr ammo we used to test it.

Finally, while it is VERY possible to build an HK91/G3 clone that will compete with an AR-10 type rifle in terms of accuracy...they don't come cheap. The MSG-91 perimeter rifle will run you around $1800 without rings/optics, but is an excellent rifle.

I have to completely disagree with Cubicle Commando above when he says that he'd never put any money up in a battle of accuracy between a scoped AR and an HK clone. My MSG-90 clone has outshoot or held its own with every AR-10 type rifle it has come up against, except for a GA Precision AR-10 rifle which was consistently capable of near 1/2 MOA accuracy with handloads. My MSG clone will shoot sub-MOA out to 600 yards with proper ammo. This is an older pic before the build was complete...but you get the idea. Also, note that this was built on a JLD/PTR receiver with mostly original HK MSG-90 parts.



Again, which rifle is the best rifle is hard to say because neither were designed for the same purpose. I'd figure out your budget for the complete rifle, optics, mounts/rings, mags, etc., then determine what your intended purposes are for the rifle and then make your decision.
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
PTR ( or JDL ) is here in Connecticut, where I live. I may have to call them to see if at least they have a show room. I know I can't buy direct but i can get my local shop to. I'm very surprised that my local shops don't stock them. They say they have to stock at least 5 of them. And, the MSG 91 IS the one I'm considering. The costs are close but the PTR is a little cheaper. I'm pretty sure they build to requests. I would get the weld-on scope mounts if so.
 

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PTR ( or JDL ) is here in Connecticut, where I live. I may have to call them to see if at least they have a show room. I know I can't buy direct but i can get my local shop to. I'm very surprised that my local shops don't stock them. They say they have to stock at least 5 of them. And, the MSG 91 IS the one I'm considering. The costs are close but the PTR is a little cheaper. I'm pretty sure they build to requests. I would get the weld-on scope mounts if so.
Unless they have a company policy not to sell direct, you should be able to. They do have an FFL, after all.
 

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NO KIDDING!!!

It is not fair to compare a battle rifle clone like the PTR-91 to a precision target rifle like the Titan. Aside from sheer rugged reliability, cost and cost of mags, the Titan wins hands down...but again, you are trying to compare a $900 battle rifle capable of 2.5-3MOA average accuracy out of the box with a $2K+ target rifle capable of MOA or better accuracy.

As for scope mounting...while scoping a PTR can be difficult, it is not impossible, nor will you have problems with the claw lock mount if it is not a knock off and it is mounted properly. If you don't want to go the claw lock mount, there are some great options for a clamp-on picatinny rail such as the B&T rail and the MFI, which will allow you to use and standard picatinny/weaver rings and accessories. Also, if you want to make a closer comparison between the Titan and an HK clone, look at the PTR MSG-91 Perimeter rifle which is a heavier target version of the PTR-91 with a Magpul adjustable stock, railed forend, and welded picatinney receiver scope rail. There are reports of these rifles being MOA or better capable with match ammo out of the box. The only one I have fired was at least capable of MOA accuracy with the BH 168gr ammo we used to test it.

Finally, while it is VERY possible to build an HK91/G3 clone that will compete with an AR-10 type rifle in terms of accuracy...they don't come cheap. The MSG-91 perimeter rifle will run you around $1800 without rings/optics, but is an excellent rifle.

I have to completely disagree with Cubicle Commando above when he says that he'd never put any money up in a battle of accuracy between a scoped AR and an HK clone. My MSG-90 clone has outshoot or held its own with every AR-10 type rifle it has come up against, except for a GA Precision AR-10 rifle which was consistently capable of near 1/2 MOA accuracy with handloads. My MSG clone will shoot sub-MOA out to 600 yards with proper ammo. This is an older pic before the build was complete...but you get the idea. Also, note that this was built on a JLD/PTR receiver with mostly original HK MSG-90 parts.



Again, which rifle is the best rifle is hard to say because neither were designed for the same purpose. I'd figure out your budget for the complete rifle, optics, mounts/rings, mags, etc., then determine what your intended purposes are for the rifle and then make your decision.
ORD, that is a fine rifle with the best parts and well put together. That is what you need to do to a HK clone to make a MOA rifle. I guess let me rephrase, you need to really put some money and effort into making a HK clone shoot as well as a precision type 308 AR.
Tell us what you put into that rifle $$$$$?
We can also always talk about Surplus ammo issues and Bolt Gaps, that may help the original thread starter decide on which one he should get :rolleyes:
Nice rifle!
 

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We can also always talk about Surplus ammo issues and Bolt Gaps, that may help the original thread starter decide on which one he should get
We're not talking Century trash here.

The PTR-91s are made with all new parts and delivered with the lowest possible bolt gap, so that the user will have decades of service ahead of him/her before there is any possible thought of 'bolt gap issues'.

Surplus ammo issues? Zero that I've heard of with the PTR-91s. Now commercial ammo can be ripped in half by them due to the thinner commercial brass used. All that's needed to resolve this problem is a broken case extractor in your range bag.

I personally don't care for "precision rifles" that are based on a platform that
into it's own works.
 

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I completely agree with you on the cost issues with building a "precision" HK, C.C., and also about generally picking the AR-10 over the PTR/Clone rifles for out-of-the-box precision. :) I was just taking exception to the "never put any money" on an HK clone versus an AR. :wink:

That is why I said that it is possible to build an HK91/G3 clone that will compete with an AR-10 type rifle in terms of accuracy, BUT..."they certainly don't come cheap." I won't get into exactly what I've got in my MSG-90 clone since I did a lot of the machining work and building of the rifle, but without optics...it would be roughly 3x what you'd pay for an off-the-shelf PTR-91. :shock:

In terms of being able to buy a rifle, take it out of the box and go shoot it for best accuracy...the AR platform absolutely wins hands down...no questions asked. I still have an AR-10T that I love and will never get rid of it, but having built my MSG from the ground up except for some of the precision welding and barreling that I had done...it is my go-to rifle for a semi-auto 308.

The MSG-91 Perimeter rifle is more closely comparable to the Fulton rifle in terms of overall accuracy potential, but with Fulton's 1MOA accuracy guarantee...you'd be hard pressed to pass it up for the money. $1800 or so for the base Titan...another $650-700 for rings and some good glass and you are in and done for around $2500.

Also, for later ease of upgrading it, maintaining it (the 91/G3 rifles are a PITA to thoroughly clean), etc., the AR-10 platform also wins out.

As for the bolt gap issues and surplus ammo issues, etc., I don't know that gets the OP any further in his decision-making process, but I will say that not all surplus ammo was created equal and you should never expect precision accuracy with surplus, nor 100% reliability with it either. Also, while fairly rare for the .308, you also have to be aware of shooting corrosive from either of the possible rifle choices and avoid it like the plague.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
I found a dealer with a PTR 91SC. All things considered, there is one issue I must address. It didn't feel good in my hands. I don't know what it is, it looks mean as hell but not comfortable, especially when rapid lifting it from rest to aim & fire position. Now I'm really back to square 1. You can look and compare all you want but until you feel an actual rifle you don't know. I'm glad to touch one before ordering. NOW... I "tried on" a FN-FAL. WOW it felt good in my hands. It has a 20 inch barrel but thats what I want anyway. Does anyone have any experience with these?
 

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I found a dealer with a PTR 91SC. All things considered, there is one issue I must address. It didn't feel good in my hands. I don't know what it is, it looks mean as hell but not comfortable, especially when rapid lifting it from rest to aim & fire position. Now I'm really back to square 1. You can look and compare all you want but until you feel an actual rifle you don't know. I'm glad to touch one before ordering. NOW... I "tried on" a FN-FAL. WOW it felt good in my hands. It has a 20 inch barrel but thats what I want anyway. Does anyone have any experience with these?
The short stock on these rifles tends to be a problem for some.
Mag, you need to come visit us here Militaryfirearm

Lots of great stuff on FAL's, PTR's and other battle rifles etc......
 

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The FN/FAL is not my forte', but I have heard good things about some and horrible things about others. From the ones I have fired, the DSA is hands-down the finest platform available for the FN/FAL series rifles. The only "issues" I have with them is that they are grossly overpriced for what you get. I mean, if it is still coming down to an FN/FAL OR the Fulton Armory Titan...they Titan wins in every possible category except for cheap mags. To get an FAL that will compete with the accuracy. performance, etc. of a Titan (if you can find one), will cost more than the Titan and won't be near the rifle.

Here is DSA's website:
-D S Arms
 

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The FN/FAL is not my forte', but I have heard good things about some and horrible things about others. From the ones I have fired, the DSA is hands-down the finest platform available for the FN/FAL series rifles. The only "issues" I have with them is that they are grossly overpriced for what you get. I mean, if it is still coming down to an FN/FAL OR the Fulton Armory Titan...they Titan wins in every possible category except for cheap mags. To get an FAL that will compete with the accuracy. performance, etc. of a Titan (if you can find one), will cost more than the Titan and won't be near the rifle.

Here is DSA's website:
-D S Arms
If I'm looking for accuracy in a 7.62 it's not going to be a semi. "Performance"? What are you calling performance?
The horrible ones are either Centurys or kit builds.
FAL: Right arm of the free world, adopted by 90+ countries, built in at least 70 countries.
As far as cost is concerned, if it's what you want, you will later regret not saving or spending just a bit more to get it. Ammo will outstrip that difference pretty quick.
I've wanted a FAL since around 1984, got a DSA SA-58 about 3 years ago for $1400+, don't regret it a bit.
 

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Fixed it for you.

OTW, you'll have some very accomplished 'smiths jumping on ya.
They'd be jumping into deep hot water, cause that aint what I said nor implied.
I said if it's a horrible FAL it will be a Century or a kit build. Post the horrible FAL stories and I bet they will be a Century or a kit. Everybody ( including DSA ) farts out a lemon once in a while but the majority ( few as they still might be ) will be Century or kits.
 

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I agree with Kaboom on the kits...every single one I have seen has been a trainwreck or at least a trainwreck waiting to happen.

The DSA is THE way to go for an FAL.

In terms of performance, I should have been more clear. It should have read "accuracy/performance" which I was using as one term and not very well at that. The DSA FAL's I have fired were all capable of around 3MOA accuracy which is more than twice (actually...roughly 3x) what the Titan is guaranteed to shoot. My comment on the price differences between the two related to accuracy. The DSA rifles that are capable of performing at closer to the accuracy of the Titan are those with the free float foreends in the Hunter and tactical lineup which will cost more than the Titan and may not delivery the same degree of accuracy. While I agree with you that I would not pick a semi as my platform for wringing the most accuracy out of a rifle...there are some that do a damn fine job accuracy-wise at extended ranges.

In terms of just plain rugged reliability and longevity, the FAL takes the edge on the Titan or any AR-10 platform rifle as long as you are using a well-made DSA rifle with decent ammo and mags.

Sorry for any confusion.
 

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I don't think you've seen some of the high end FAL 'smiths work.


Believe what you like, though.
 

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I don't think you've seen some of the high end FAL 'smiths work.


Believe what you like, though.
You are right on...I haven't seen any of the "high end" FAL rifles, but if you want to point me to a smith or several smiths for the FN/FAL platform that will build a rifle with a 1 MOA accuracy guarantee (or better) and stand behind it for around the same $1800-2000 price tag as the Titan, I'd certainly like to know of those folks and to see their work. I am NOT (repeat NOT) badmouthing the FAL at all.

Again...as one of the other posters said...we are comparing apples and lawnmowers here (refering to the PTR v. the Titan). The Titan was designed as a high-end target or hunting rifle for around the $1800-2000 price range for the "average" model (with some going toward the $3K range). The FAL is a battle rifle. As I said before...the FN/FAL isn't really my thing. I have shot plenty of them and they are absoluetly fine battle rifles capable of outstanding reliability and battle rifle accuracy (3 MOA...at least the stock DSA rifles I have fired will achieve 3 MOA). Hell, even DSA indicates that the expected accuracy from their rifles is 3-4MOA.

Again, I'd like to see the custom work on the FAL's if you can point me to any sites I can look at. Always something I can add to the mental library of random gun stuff!!
 

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You are right on...I haven't seen any of the "high end" FAL rifles, but if you want to point me to a smith or several smiths for the FN/FAL platform that will build a rifle with a 1 MOA accuracy guarantee (or better) and stand behind it for around the same $1800-2000 price tag as the Titan, I'd certainly like to know of those folks and to see their work. I am NOT (repeat NOT) badmouthing the FAL at all.
The reason I'm speaking up is not to point out target grade FAL builders but the points being raised that "kit FALs are all garbage". A FAL (or any gun) made from a kit is as good as the gunsmith that assembles it and there are some really great FAL 'smiths out there that are being insulted by the above point.
Again...as one of the other posters said...we are comparing apples and lawnmowers here
Yeah, I wonder who that was.
 
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