cover your ass... ain't nothin' silly about doin' that!
EDIT: I appluad you for being concerned. Some people would just shrug and say forget it.
EDIT: I appluad you for being concerned. Some people would just shrug and say forget it.
Potential Situation... PLEASE give me your thoughts.
Man, the more I think about this, the more concerned I get. I'll try not to make this too "wordy"...
I put an ad in the paper that ran today for my G-17 asking $410. I agreed to sell it to a gentlemen for $400 on Monday if I could not sell it for $410. I got a call from another guy who said he was interested. After I told him I had already committed to sell the gun on Monday, but I'd take his # and call him if the sale fell through, he said he'd give me $450 for it today!
Well, I met the guy, he introduced himself as "John" and I could tell he was pretty much white trash I don't mean sloppy, poor or dirty - he was white trash. He handed me $450 and said he'd like to have $10 for gas to get home on. I told him $5 would do it since he told me where he was driving from. So, I sold it to him for $450 as the BoS states and gave him $5 for gas to get home on.
I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale and he did. He signed it as "Bob Smith", filled in the address(when his buddy laughingly hit him) with a different city that where he said he was driving (I didn't notice this until I got back in my truck), and he was ready to get the hell out of Dodge. Before he left I stuck out my hand and introduced myself to his friend. He said his name was "Bob" (like the buyer signed as). So I think the buyer signed as his buddy kind of as a Joke. But, why would a white trash SOB not want to use his real name? All of this kind of came together in my mind after I sold him the gun and he was gone.
Man, what if I sold this gun to a felon? I am concerned about this. He paid me in cash which was probably drug $. He didn't date the Bill of Sale like I asked, but I dated my side when I signed it. I have also taken digital pics of my caller ID when he called, and I have a copy of the paper when the ad was printed.
Am I being silly?
Thanks
J
I put an ad in the paper that ran today for my G-17 asking $410. I agreed to sell it to a gentlemen for $400 on Monday if I could not sell it for $410. I got a call from another guy who said he was interested. After I told him I had already committed to sell the gun on Monday, but I'd take his # and call him if the sale fell through, he said he'd give me $450 for it today!
Well, I met the guy, he introduced himself as "John" and I could tell he was pretty much white trash I don't mean sloppy, poor or dirty - he was white trash. He handed me $450 and said he'd like to have $10 for gas to get home on. I told him $5 would do it since he told me where he was driving from. So, I sold it to him for $450 as the BoS states and gave him $5 for gas to get home on.
I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale and he did. He signed it as "Bob Smith", filled in the address(when his buddy laughingly hit him) with a different city that where he said he was driving (I didn't notice this until I got back in my truck), and he was ready to get the hell out of Dodge. Before he left I stuck out my hand and introduced myself to his friend. He said his name was "Bob" (like the buyer signed as). So I think the buyer signed as his buddy kind of as a Joke. But, why would a white trash SOB not want to use his real name? All of this kind of came together in my mind after I sold him the gun and he was gone.
Man, what if I sold this gun to a felon? I am concerned about this. He paid me in cash which was probably drug $. He didn't date the Bill of Sale like I asked, but I dated my side when I signed it. I have also taken digital pics of my caller ID when he called, and I have a copy of the paper when the ad was printed.
Am I being silly?
Thanks
J
1 - 20 of 64 Posts
Well, I am not familiar with Arkansas laws on private party gun sales but assuming they're completely unregulated like they are in TX I'll tell you what I have done.
1. I want to see their drivers license. Mainly to insure they are >21 and a resident of my state.
2. I ask up front if they have ever been convicted of a felony or have a restraining order against them. I know they would probably lie but I feel better having asked.
3. If I see their vehicle I write down the license plate number before I drive away.
1. I want to see their drivers license. Mainly to insure they are >21 and a resident of my state.
2. I ask up front if they have ever been convicted of a felony or have a restraining order against them. I know they would probably lie but I feel better having asked.
3. If I see their vehicle I write down the license plate number before I drive away.
That's very solid advice.HighVelocity said:Well, I am not familiar with Arkansas laws on private party gun sales but assuming they're completely unregulated like they are in TX I'll tell you what I have done.
1. I want to see their drivers license. Mainly to insure they are >21 and a resident of my state.
2. I ask up front if they have ever been convicted of a felony or have a restraining order against them. I know they would probably lie but I feel better having asked.
3. If I see their vehicle I write down the license plate number before I drive away.
I would be more than a little concerned. If the gun is used in a crime, it comes back to you. You sold it to someone without proof of ID. If someone is injured or killed with the pistol, you can bet that an attorney will be looking at anyone and everyone to nail.
You may want to contact local authorities regarding this and cover your ass. May sound like alot of fuss over selling a gun, but trust me, it sure the hell beats having to deal with a lawsuit. If the guy is clean and just didn't want to give you his name because he's paranoid, tough ****. You need to cover all your bases.
You may want to contact local authorities regarding this and cover your ass. May sound like alot of fuss over selling a gun, but trust me, it sure the hell beats having to deal with a lawsuit. If the guy is clean and just didn't want to give you his name because he's paranoid, tough ****. You need to cover all your bases.
I don't think I'd get too terribly worked up over this. The guy represented himself as lawfully purchasing the gun. He didn't ask you to keep it quiet, he didn't seem drugged up, etc.
However, I would talk to a lawyer rather than the police. The police may be obligated to make a big deal out of this, whereas a lawyer can tell you with some certainty what your exposure is if the new owner was in fact a felon or if the gun is used in a crime in the future.
When I bought a handgun from an acqaintance he had a form that we both signed. It spelled out that the seller was the legal and owner of the firearm and that it had never been used in a crime. It also spelled out that I, the buyer, was certifying that I am not a convicted felon, under a restraining order, or classified as a prohibited person under federal law, and that I will not commit any crimes with the gun. I think that this kind of form is a good idea in showing that the seller has made reasonable efforts to ensure that the buyer can legally purchase/possess firearms, and the buyer gets assurances that the seller is similarly legal to possess and sell the handgun.
Although I'd rather have zero record of my purchases, which may be what your buyer was thinking if he used his friend's name.
However, I would talk to a lawyer rather than the police. The police may be obligated to make a big deal out of this, whereas a lawyer can tell you with some certainty what your exposure is if the new owner was in fact a felon or if the gun is used in a crime in the future.
When I bought a handgun from an acqaintance he had a form that we both signed. It spelled out that the seller was the legal and owner of the firearm and that it had never been used in a crime. It also spelled out that I, the buyer, was certifying that I am not a convicted felon, under a restraining order, or classified as a prohibited person under federal law, and that I will not commit any crimes with the gun. I think that this kind of form is a good idea in showing that the seller has made reasonable efforts to ensure that the buyer can legally purchase/possess firearms, and the buyer gets assurances that the seller is similarly legal to possess and sell the handgun.
Although I'd rather have zero record of my purchases, which may be what your buyer was thinking if he used his friend's name.
I didn't think of the license plate # until he'd already drive off and I was in my truck going home. Usually I'm slicker than that, but I guess I was just trying to figure out why I didn't have a peaceful easy feeling about the situation. I can easily describe the car, but hell, he probably didn't give his real name when he bought it either.
Also, the lawyer thing (avoiding the PD exposure at this point) is probably a great idea.
Dang, you know looking back this, I don't know what the right thing would be/have been to do. I guess I'll contact my local PD or attorney and explain what happened. I sure hope I didn't sell it to a "Meth Chef", which are very popular where said he was driving in from.
You know, I'd give $450, $900 or even $10,000 to do the right thing in this situation to avoid any abuse on another person.
This is really a philosophical/political quandry. I still have to stick to my guns (no pun intended) and consider that this is deal between me and that guy - no place for gov't regulation. For my conscious sake, and in all reality, if he would not have gotten that gun from me, he would have gotten it elsewhere. I just hope I'm not sued or my reputation is not harmed. I have a 3 month old daughter, and I don't want here daddy labeled as a criminal!
Also, the lawyer thing (avoiding the PD exposure at this point) is probably a great idea.
Dang, you know looking back this, I don't know what the right thing would be/have been to do. I guess I'll contact my local PD or attorney and explain what happened. I sure hope I didn't sell it to a "Meth Chef", which are very popular where said he was driving in from.
You know, I'd give $450, $900 or even $10,000 to do the right thing in this situation to avoid any abuse on another person.
This is really a philosophical/political quandry. I still have to stick to my guns (no pun intended) and consider that this is deal between me and that guy - no place for gov't regulation. For my conscious sake, and in all reality, if he would not have gotten that gun from me, he would have gotten it elsewhere. I just hope I'm not sued or my reputation is not harmed. I have a 3 month old daughter, and I don't want here daddy labeled as a criminal!
I got a call a few weeks ago from the BATF about a gun I sold TEN YEARS AGO. You need to ask for identification and keep good records. If you can't prove where a gun goes to it's your ass.
just hope he doesnt come back and want the other $5 for gas....and use your G17 to get it. :!: :!: :!:
There is no law in Texas that say's you have to do this but it sounds like very good advice. I have a form from Washington state I use for a sale.Gary G23 said:I got a call a few weeks ago from the BATF about a gun I sold TEN YEARS AGO. You need to ask for identification and keep good records. If you can't prove where a gun goes to it's your ass.
It can be found at the bottom of this page...
http://www.dol.wa.gov/forms/652004.htm
This is a form I use for my records only.
Ya know, in Michigan, if you dont secure your gun to the max and someone stole your gun from your car and it is used in a hold up and some one gets shot by your gun, you will be held responsible for ANY damages done,, even MURDER. Just something to think about.
OK, ok. I know I should have gotten his DLN, SSN, fingerprints and a retina id scan before I sold him the gun, but I neglected to do so. I think most people would have done the same thing I did (especially before reading this post) if they thought the could get $450 for an 8 year old G-17, which is a good deal for a seller here in AR. I am just interested in what you would do now, if you were me, with the transaction being final. Is it not safe to assume that a Bill of Sale is not a reasonable means of covering my ass?
Hey, if you keep giving me the "woulda, shoulda" and it makes this whole thing sink in on anybody else selling a used gun - Man, I'm all for it! BUT, That does not fix my potential situation now though.
This is all great input so keep it coming!
Thanks
J
Hey, if you keep giving me the "woulda, shoulda" and it makes this whole thing sink in on anybody else selling a used gun - Man, I'm all for it! BUT, That does not fix my potential situation now though.
This is all great input so keep it coming!
Thanks
J
If you forgot to do the retina id scan your screwed. What's done is done. Nothing you can do about it now except learn a lesson and carry on with the rest of your life.
One-eyed-fatman, I very, very respectfully accept and appreciate your input here, so please, please do not take this the wrong way. With all of the non-FFL gun transactions that go on, and the CYA suggestions out there what else would anybody else have reasonably done? And, most importantly, what should I do now?one-eyed-fatman said:If you forgot to do the retina id scan your screwed. What's done is done. Nothing you can do about it now except learn a lesson and carry on with the rest of your life.
Thanks
J
one-eyed-fatman said:If you forgot to do the retina id scan your screwed.
i think he meant to separate the sarcastic remark about the retina scan from the true advice. I have separated them above. at least that's how i took it, i'll stand corrected by oefm...one-eyed-fatman said:What's done is done. Nothing you can do about it now except learn a lesson and carry on with the rest of your life.
imho, about your situation, i would learn from it, and come up with a form (like what has been linked to in this thread) for future use.
I Look at their drivers license and copy the name and number as it appears on it and then I have them sign and date everything. Once the transaction is completed I have it notorized. I keep a copy for myself and one for them. I usually do my transactions at my friend's insurance office so that I have witnesses and a notary handy. I have made sales like yours in years past but with zero documentation. I had one come back to me years after the fact. I could not remember having even owned the gun much less who I sold or traded it to. At any rate absolutely nothing came of it. There is no hard and fast law apparently on private gun sales that specifically requires you to document anything. I realize that this could be different in other states. My point is, unless you have a questionable background, nothing criminal will come of it even if the pistol is used in a crime.
ranburr
ranburr
Write down the serial # of the gun, date you sold it, name of person you sold it to and any other info you can think of. Other than that it's a done deal. I really don't think there is anything else you can do.
write down all you remember about "john" AKA "Bob Smith", where he said he was coming from, vehicle description,caller ID photo,any other info you think is relevent, put it all in file folder in gun cabinet and forget about it until the BATF or FBI or whoever calls asking about your Glock17. IF........they ever do!! Big IF!
I find that almost impossible to believe that anyone who does NOT commit murder can be tried as such without guilt, but mere negligence of ownership. If that is true, there are some laws that need changing.Packer said:Ya know, in Michigan, if you dont secure your gun to the max and someone stole your gun from your car and it is used in a hold up and some one gets shot by your gun, you will be held responsible for ANY damages done,, even MURDER. Just something to think about.
No, you're not being silly, particularly not since if this guy does turn out to be a felon, you could do jail time.Arkansas said:Man, the more I think about this, the more concerned I get. I'll try not to make this too "wordy"...
I put an ad in the paper that ran today for my G-17 asking $410. I agreed to sell it to a gentlemen for $400 on Monday if I could not sell it for $410. I got a call from another guy who said he was interested. After I told him I had already committed to sell the gun on Monday, but I'd take his # and call him if the sale fell through, he said he'd give me $450 for it today!
Well, I met the guy, he introduced himself as "John" and I could tell he was pretty much white trash I don't mean sloppy, poor or dirty - he was white trash. He handed me $450 and said he'd like to have $10 for gas to get home on. I told him $5 would do it since he told me where he was driving from. So, I sold it to him for $450 as the BoS states and gave him $5 for gas to get home on.
I asked him to sign a Bill of Sale and he did. He signed it as "Bob Smith", filled in the address(when his buddy laughingly hit him) with a different city that where he said he was driving (I didn't notice this until I got back in my truck), and he was ready to get the hell out of Dodge. Before he left I stuck out my hand and introduced myself to his friend. He said his name was "Bob" (like the buyer signed as). So I think the buyer signed as his buddy kind of as a Joke. But, why would a white trash SOB not want to use his real name? All of this kind of came together in my mind after I sold him the gun and he was gone.
Man, what if I sold this gun to a felon? I am concerned about this. He paid me in cash which was probably drug $. He didn't date the Bill of Sale like I asked, but I dated my side when I signed it. I have also taken digital pics of my caller ID when he called, and I have a copy of the paper when the ad was printed.
Am I being silly?
Thanks
J
The federal law is pretty vague on this stuff, in that if you could be "reasonably expected to know" that you are selling under suspicious circumstances, they can prosecute. Arkansas is clearer, in that it states "...or otherwise furnishes a handgun to a person who he knows has been found guilty of..." a felony, or would otherwise be prohibited from possession (for instance, if you could reasonably assume the guy was under eighteen years old).
However, you have reason to believe that "Bob" did not identify himself truthfully to you. Did you get ID from the guy, and transcribe it directly? If you did not, that's a big grey area.
If you are an FFL holder, your responsibility just jumped a few notches.
Either way, it's your call - whether to file it or report it. I don't know what choice I'd make, personally. I'm inclined towards reporting it, but then I'm not in your shoes. I don't think from the sound of what you're saying that you could get convicted of providing a weapon to a felon/minor in this, but that wouldn't stop an aggressive DA from pursuing you on some kind of charge.
Hope this helps -
T
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