I have n340, long shot, and imr4227 and data for all. only 100 expensive 44 xtp s though. I'm leaning with the imr4227. higher V lower P. n340 is flash treated though. somebody lean me one way or the other convincingly from experience or good OL know how. thx
playing with 44 magnums
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m_f, N340 is a very good general purpose powder and like Unique (only better) it will be good for medium velocity loads, maybe a bit more. LongShot will get you a bit more velocity and should be about midway performance wise between N340 and IMR 4227. The highest velocity potential powder of the 3 you have is IMR 4227 that's better regarded for accuracy loads than performance loads. Fred is our resident .44 Magnum specialist, so I'm sure he'll help guide you on this. The Magnum powder I use most is Enforcer/AA 4100 and I've made excellent loads in the past with AA#9. I prefer their very slightly faster burn rate in the smaller cases of the .41 and .357 Magnum and I use True Blue for short barrel .357 Magnum defense loads. Great accuracy and consistency with flash about as low as it gets. N340 could be used for the same purpose. As far as .44 Magnum full-throttle hunting loads, I doubt there's anything really better than H110/W296, but AA#9 and Enforcer do pretty well. It might depend on the performance/recoil you want, but IMR 4227 has long had an excellent reputation for accuracy loads. It just won't produce the same velocity of other magnum propellants. BTW, what weight XTPs did you get and what data are you going to use? Current V-V data is considerably lower than what it once was and since I've never had any problems, I continue to load with V-V powders from the #2 load guide from the early 90s. Unfortunately, Lyman didn't use N340 or Longshot in the P & R III which is the same handgun data as the 49th edition. They did use IMR 4227 for every bullet tested, though. 
I was using the Hodgkin.com website data. they are 180 gr xtp's.
I will shooting them from a smith and Wesson model 29, older model in mint condition, still have original box and have maybe fired 30 rounds or so. best part, it's an 8 3/8 bbl. shoots 44 Spcl like 357 shoots 38s.
it's a pretty sweet handgun.
I won't be running hot loads in it, it is an old gun, yet looks brand new.
hornady has imr4227 data with the 180s so I was gonna start there.
it's difficult to make test ladders for 3 powders when I only have a 100 box!!!!!
you did say imr4227 has had positive accuracy results??? the velocity is there for sure?? I believe it was flirting with 1700 fps out of a 7". maybe my 2" extra will add 20-30 fops!
thanks
I will shooting them from a smith and Wesson model 29, older model in mint condition, still have original box and have maybe fired 30 rounds or so. best part, it's an 8 3/8 bbl. shoots 44 Spcl like 357 shoots 38s.
it's a pretty sweet handgun.
I won't be running hot loads in it, it is an old gun, yet looks brand new.
hornady has imr4227 data with the 180s so I was gonna start there.
it's difficult to make test ladders for 3 powders when I only have a 100 box!!!!!
you did say imr4227 has had positive accuracy results??? the velocity is there for sure?? I believe it was flirting with 1700 fps out of a 7". maybe my 2" extra will add 20-30 fops!
thanks
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Well, it's good to know the bullet weight. With light bullets like the 180 gr. XTP using powders just barely faster than magnum like Blue Dot, AA#7 and Longshot, velocities are not a great deal lower than with Magnum powders. Looking at the Lyman data compared to Hodgdon's (which I'm not really keen on) Hodgdon loaded the 180 gr. XTP with 29 grs. of IMR 4227 MAX. Lyman used the SIERRA 180 gr. JHC where the Max. is 2 full grs lower. Personally, I just don't care for how Hodgdon does things sometimes. If you look at the data for the 180 gr. XTP you'll noticed that they measured the pressure of the IMR 4227 load in CUP at 31,200 CUP while the LongShot load was measured at 34,600 PSI.
Even going back to my Lyman 46th edition they used the same MAX charge then as they do today with 27.0 grs. of IMR 4227. In both cases pressure tested 34,800 CUP. While that number may look pretty similar to 34,600 for the PSI rating for Longshot, that's where the comparison ends. In magnum revolver cases with identical charges, CUP values will be higher than PSI values. Just the opposite of what occurs in autoloader cases like the 9mm and .40 S&W.
I would bet on Lyman's pressure being a bit more realistic and they continue to measure in CUP. The advantage here is that with the longer barrel and 4227's slower than typical burn rates when compared to other magnum handgun propellants, IMR will develop better velocity in the longer tube with less pressure. Considering that Hodgdon's Max charge is 29.0 grs.for the 180 XTP while Lyman's is 27.0 for the SIERRA. 27.0 grs. for the XTP is probably not a bad place to start. But, at 29.0 grs. IMR 4227 requires twice as much powder as the Longshot load. Kinda up to you which one strikes the better balance, economics vs. pressure. Just so you'll know, the Current SAAMI MAX pressure for .44 Magnum is 36,000 PSI and Lyman data does not exceed 40,000 CUP where the original pressure rating was 43,500 CUP.
great info. I'm gonna dive in to all of that this evening so i can absorb it when I have a little more time.
one thing, I'm kina just stuck with the imr4227 so it kina just fills the bill. I prefer my long shot and n340, for well everything else I like to shoot lol. sometimes the max vary in amazing amounts. I will def start low and sacrifice a few extra bullets in a ladder in stead sacrificing my hand. I also have the lyman manual so I will give it a look again as well.
so the jhc and xtp are close enough to start data with, check!
one thing, I'm kina just stuck with the imr4227 so it kina just fills the bill. I prefer my long shot and n340, for well everything else I like to shoot lol. sometimes the max vary in amazing amounts. I will def start low and sacrifice a few extra bullets in a ladder in stead sacrificing my hand. I also have the lyman manual so I will give it a look again as well.
so the jhc and xtp are close enough to start data with, check!
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m_f, because of IMR 4227's rep and the fact that you have powder to burn, I'd be stingy with the N340, myself. I know a lot of folks don't understand my obsession with True Blue and it would take far more space than allowed to explain it, but N340 is a really, really good all-around powder. Maybe not quite True Blue or ideal for every caliber but I'd trade 2# of Unique for 1# of N340: another long story and I can't believe the number of recommendations I see for it in 2014. Then again, I don't fully understand how quickly this country got dumb enough to put a communist in the whitehouse.
I don't know what the Hornady manual lists for LongShot, but it would be an interesting pursuit if you have the time and enough powder. It can be used in the same applications as N340 like 9 x 19mm, .40 S&W and .45 ACP, but 340 is an excellent powder in both 9mm and .45 ACP. JustSomeGuy likes LongShot for .40 S&W and I know he's doing it right. For one thing, I have QuickLoad analysis for many powders using 180 gr. JHPs in .40 S&W, but JSG actually has the program where the sums can be changed by the input data. Not exactly 100% accurate, but it does help. I wish I had better data to be of more help with IMR 4227 & LS loads both rated in CUP or PSI. Makes no difference to me and I'm also fluent in pressure measurements in BARS and Paschals (megapaschals). Measurements in BARS are lower and a bit more convenient to work with mathematically. Kinda moot! The important thing is really understanding the difference between pressure in PSI vs. CUP here in the US. If I had my way we'd have PSI pressure measurements in the same way they're done in the C.I.P. PSI system. Again, another story.
I am stingy with my 340 !!! lol.
long shot is great for 40. I have chrono results posted in the archives using it with 40. all my full power loads are long shot, also in 45 surprisingly.
I am also obsessed with true blue and silhouette- obsessed with finding some !!!!!!
long shot is great for 40. I have chrono results posted in the archives using it with 40. all my full power loads are long shot, also in 45 surprisingly.
I am also obsessed with true blue and silhouette- obsessed with finding some !!!!!!
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I have several -1 & -2 early M29, my fav revolvers. I don't shoot max loads in them, old jacketed bullets for that matter, to extend their lives. Still, the older M29 will shoot full power lads just fine.
4227 works well, like 2400, best with 240gr & up, also best run near the top end, not unlike most of the slower powders.
You really want to make that 29 run, go with a good cast lead 240-270gr bullet.
all I'm sitting on at the moment are some Hornady .44 180 gr cowboy lead bullets (too soft, bought for 44 spcl) and some 180 gr xtp s.
I will have to pick some 240s up.
so I should shoot hard cast lead to prolong the barrel life, okay. it should tolerate the 100 180 gr xtps right? I rarely even shoot the gun but would hate to lessen its accuracy or life. when i get the leads maybe i can get some more shots behind it. Whats your prefered hard cast??????Thanks for the info, they are beautiful guns.
I will have to pick some 240s up.
so I should shoot hard cast lead to prolong the barrel life, okay. it should tolerate the 100 180 gr xtps right? I rarely even shoot the gun but would hate to lessen its accuracy or life. when i get the leads maybe i can get some more shots behind it. Whats your prefered hard cast??????Thanks for the info, they are beautiful guns.
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I never got around to using LongShot in .40 S&W. I always used powders that could be used for it and 9 x 19mm. 3N37 is very good, but older V-V data is a must. It gave me all the velocity I wanted, so I never got very close to a MAX charge using it. 3N37 and Silhouette are fairly similar powders. I still keep 3N37 around for that reason, as a back-up to Silhouette. I would definitely try N340 in .40 S&W when you can get around to it. I was never much into 180 gr. JHPs and mostly loaded 150 - 165 gr. JHPs and Golden Sabers and 155 - 170 gr. cast SWCs. The best accuracy load I ever produced in .40 was with True Blue, but like 9mm, I use Silhouette for defense loads.
All things considered including the age of the M29, IMR 4227 should work out pretty well for you since you have it and want to use it. The longer barrel will help you get better efficiency and produce less pressure than LongShot. Still though, most of the wear and tear are gonna be caused by physics (recoil) of bullet weight times velocity and the power factor formula can be used if you'd like to make comparisons. BW x V / 1000 = PF.
All things considered including the age of the M29, IMR 4227 should work out pretty well for you since you have it and want to use it. The longer barrel will help you get better efficiency and produce less pressure than LongShot. Still though, most of the wear and tear are gonna be caused by physics (recoil) of bullet weight times velocity and the power factor formula can be used if you'd like to make comparisons. BW x V / 1000 = PF.
I've found the PF equation very helpful. It's been useful in estimating the recoil of the load prior to shooting. also a simple rouh estimate conversion to energy when using a chrono.
the 340 is my go to in .40 for the powders I have available. I also have an archived post somewhere with a ladder charger on 165 and 180 gr Barry's and rainier bullets and the velocities for n340. can't remember the figures so I won't attempt to reference them. the n340 also plays well in low light. very low flash even in my 3.8" beretta 8040.
I did find some/most of my loads to be light in comparison despite the barrel length difference using the new website v-v data. how do I acquire the old data your speaking of??
the 340 is my go to in .40 for the powders I have available. I also have an archived post somewhere with a ladder charger on 165 and 180 gr Barry's and rainier bullets and the velocities for n340. can't remember the figures so I won't attempt to reference them. the n340 also plays well in low light. very low flash even in my 3.8" beretta 8040.
I did find some/most of my loads to be light in comparison despite the barrel length difference using the new website v-v data. how do I acquire the old data your speaking of??
I never got around to using LongShot in .40 S&W. I always used powders that could be used for it and 9 x 19mm. 3N37 is very good, but older V-V data is a must. It gave me all the velocity I wanted, so I never got very close to a MAX charge using it. 3N37 and Silhouette are fairly similar powders. I still keep 3N37 around for that reason, as a back-up to Silhouette. I would definitely try N340 in .40 S&W when you can get around to it. I was never much into 180 gr. JHPs and mostly loaded 150 - 165 gr. JHPs and Golden Sabers and 155 - 170 gr. cast SWCs. The best accuracy load I ever produced in .40 was with True Blue, but like 9mm, I use Silhouette for defense loads.
All things considered including the age of the M29, IMR 4227 should work out pretty well for you since you have it and want to use it. The longer barrel will help you get better efficiency and produce less pressure than LongShot. Still though, most of the wear and tear are gonna be caused by physics (recoil) of bullet weight times velocity and the power factor formula can be used if you'd like to make comparisons. BW x V / 1000 = PF.
I found my load journal. yes the vv n340 data I used was very light in velocity.
180 gr berb
i laddered 4.9-5.7 gr of 340 and velocities ranged from 723 fps - 875 fps climbing in a linear fashion from start to 5.7 grains. seemed light. still that's fine for target work, but I'm expecting 950-1000 fps with a 180 gr bullet. am I asking to much for a 3.8" barrel?
long shot runs them above 1000 fps over .5 gr off max. with that old data v-v you mentioned I'm hoping to have 340 work up to a similiar feel.
BTW, I'm not chasing a certain velocity, just trying to find a comfortable load similiar in feel to my full power self defense loads I carry. I like to carry PDX1S bonded. they clock consistently just over 1000fps. typically around 1020 range in my 3.8".
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Your best bet is probably trying to get an older edition V-V load manual on e-bay. I have several of the older load guides and I developed my loads from the #2. As an example, with the older SPEER 180 gr. JHP, the Start Charge was 6.0 grs. of N340. I'd have to check to see what V-V currently lists, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's a MAX charge today.
I have QuickLoad analysis for a 180 gr. Gold Dot loaded at 1.126" with 6.3 grs. that gives a predicted pressure of 34,188 PSI.
Your best bet is probably trying to get an older edition V-V load manual on e-bay. I have several of the older load guides and I developed my loads from the #2. As an example, with the older SPEER 180 gr. JHP, the Start Charge was 6.0 grs. of N340. I'd have to check to see what V-V currently lists, but it wouldn't surprise me if that's a MAX charge today.
I have QuickLoad analysis for a 180 gr. Gold Dot loaded at 1.126" with 6.3 grs. that gives a predicted pressure of 34,188 PSI.
are they just little pamphlets . I have some if so. I could also work up in .1 increments over the chrono. I have the gold sabers, supposed to act like dots, but I can't feel a driving band on these?? I have a ladder made up, as soon as I get to the range I will know. current max for a 180 is 5.7, which I chronod at 875 avg of 10, and it felt light, soooo.
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m_f, Lyman's Max Charge for the SIERRA 180 gr. JHC is 27.0 grs. I know we're talking about different bullets but they shouldn't be too dissimilar. Since we typically use 90% as a Start Charge and there's no reason you couldn't use a mid-charge of 95%. That would be 25.7 - 27.0 grs. if you want to keep pressure mild.
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In my experience with Golden Sabers, they require a higher charge compared to same weight copper jacketed hollowpoints. The Gold Dot, however, is plated to near the same thickness as a copper jacket and they load a little differently. And yes, the load guides I have are just annual pamplets. Because there is little data for the Golden Sabers, I have used data for SIERRA JHPs and Hornady XTPs. With velocity only at 5.7 grs. you should be able to work up fairly easily to the 6.0 gr. Start Charge from the V-V #2 load guide with the 180 gr. Golden Sabers.
that's precisely the data hornady provides for the xtp 200 gr.m_f, Lyman's Max Charge for the SIERRA 180 gr. JHC is 27.0 grs. I know we're talking about different bullets but they shouldn't be too dissimilar. Since we typically use 90% as a Start Charge and there's no reason you couldn't use a mid-charge of 95%. That would be 25.7 - 27.0 grs. if you want to keep pressure mild.
25.5- 27.3.
Great . I'll load some up and see how they fair, post chrono data etc.
yep I always start over towar middle range now when changing components of any sort. Thanks again
just checking my journal the current ladders I have developed w n340 and 180 gold sabers run 5.4 - 6.0 gr. I must have one of those phamplets laying around somewhere bc I know I didn't just wildcat that extra charge in there, i usually write my sources in my notes- not this time lol. thanks again!!In my experience with Golden Sabers, they require a higher charge compared to same weight copper jacketed hollowpoints. The Gold Dot, however, is plated to near the same thickness as a copper jacket and they load a little differently. And yes, the load guides I have are just annual pamplets. Because there is little data for the Golden Sabers, I have used data for SIERRA JHPs and Hornady XTPs. With velocity only at 5.7 grs. you should be able to work up fairly easily to the 6.0 gr. Start Charge from the V-V #2 load guide with the 180 gr. Golden Sabers.
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