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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
What actually causes muzzle flip? Does the firearm mechanically direct the energy upwards? Perhaps the muzzle simply "wants" to fly away from the pull of gravity.

If I were hanging upside down exactly 180 degrees from what my everyday shooting stance is, would my muzzle flip occur towards the Earth, or would it travel in the opposite direction of the natural pull of gravity?

I'm uneducated, and by no means know what forces are at work here, but I'd like to hear how it actually works.

Any physicists in the house?

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The barrel is higher than the centerline of your grip. The barrel tries to pivot around that centerline when a round is fired.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Perfect. Makes total sense.

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Things to google:
Moment arm
Torque
 

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and Yes, if you were upside down the muzzle would flip toward the earth.
 

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Oh boy. No offense intended, but things like this should have been covered sometime in high school.

A long gun recoils mostly backward because the bore axis is more inline where the grip is.

A pistol recoils as it does because the bore axis is much higher than the grip, and this is amplified because they are much lighter.

Weight is directly proportional to recoil. Double the weight of the gun, halve the recoil. Halve the weight, the recoil doubles.

These concepts work regardless of gravity. Well, replace weight with mass, anyway.
 

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proheath, I think you'll find the following videos by D.R.Middlebrooks very helpful, start at time-point 1:18 -

Pistol Shooting: The Ultimate Grip, Stance & Presentation. - YouTube

As the others have pointed out, it's "flip" because the web of your shooting hand is interacting with the back-strap/"beavertail" of the grip, effecting a pivot-point (fulcrum) as shown in the video above.

That causes the "equal and opposite reaction" of the energy of the discharged round - a force that is exerted straight back - to be turned into a "flip" of the muzzle.

Controlling recoil, in terms of the pistol, is to try to control that flip. Middlebrooks' "rolled over wrist lock" is his technique to do so, but many other exist, generalized under the modern "thumbs forward" technique - and you can see in this discussion on DC.com how different top shooters show variations on the overall technique: Proper Grip & Recoil Managment .

If you really wanted to get into a discussion on recoil management, there's a lot to talk about - yes, it's mainly about the grip, but there's also considerations for just how you manage your upper body, core, and even your stance will come into play. And just like how the "thumbs forward grip" isn't actually just one magic grip but is actually a set of different techniques with tweaked fine-points that each unique shooter finds to his/her advantage, you'll find the same variability exists with regards to upper body presentation and stance, also. ;)

Finally, remember that while recoil itself is objective, "recoil feel" is subjective, based on the shooter's own perceptions.

And to answer your questions above:

Upside-down, the flip would still occur "towards the earth," because now the heel of your hand provides that pivot point - here's some videos from some not-so-famous and famous shooters that shows this action:


^ Notice in the Miculek video, the last one, at 1:07, that the muzzle also flipped towards the left (and then bobbed back towards the right). Again, physics: since he's shooting one-handed, there's no hand on that side to counter recoil versus the hand he has gripping the gun. Thus, instead of "straight back" you see the bucking towards the side that has no abutment against the force of the shot.

Here, Travis Haley (in his Magpul Dynamics days), demonstrates this "path of least resistance" concept, starting at time-point 2:18:

Travis Haley on Handgun Grip - YouTube


----

Personal example:


^ That's me in the summer of 2012. No, I'm not Costa, I'm the fat Chinese guy shooting. :lol:

Yes, the XD/XDm's bore axis is somewhat high, but really and honestly, that's the same with many other popular "duty" firearms (Sig, Beretta, and H&K, just off the top of my head; example: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defensereview.com%2Fwp-content%2Fuploads%2F2012%2F06%2FArsenal_Firearms_Strike_One_Pistol_System_Strizh_Pistol_SIG_SAUER_SP_2340_Comparison_1.jpg&imgrefurl=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.defensereview.com%2Farsenal-firearms-strike-one-pistol-system-strizh-pistol-striker-fired-polymer-frame-9mm-parabellum9x19mm-nato-combattactical-pistol-with-ultra-low-bore-axis-meet-the-new-21st-century-russian%2F&h=714&w=1024&tbnid=M5kDqu4XVBWLMM%3A&zoom=1&docid=Pcg7fcu329gX2M&ei=xMmlU4-BAo6SyASKhYKIDg&tbm=isch&client=firefox-a&ved=0CEcQMyg_MD84ZA&iact=rc&uact=3&dur=848&page=9&start=162&ndsp=23). People really make a lot of this, but I really think it's quite subjective.

I'm just a recreational-level shooter, and a relative noob at that (I started shooting in November of 2010). You can see that my gun stays relatively flat during the course of that run, and what kind of pace I was setting (steel was quarter-scale Tac Strike [http://tacstrike.com/STEEL-TARGETS/1-4-Scale-Steel-Target-System.html], paper targets were VTAC:



- and the rules of the game was that shots on paper had to print inside the eye-box, the upper division of the A+0 head box, as delineated by it and the hashed line going through the nose). Any miss is an automatic DQ, and you can see that, aside from how nervous I was and messing up the 10-reload-10 :oops:, on the third shot of the last string of 5, the slide really moved all-over. Guess which shot I missed?

:)

If you want to go fast, you've gotta control recoil. Add in distance, and you'll need to see the sights. In the video below, Kyle Defoor gives one of the best break-downs of the classic "Bill Drill" I've ever gotten from an instructor:


^ It's been cited before here on XDTalk, but I think it's worth bringing up again, given the context of this discussion.

I'd have done pretty awesome in that end-of-day contest if I'd been able to hit the shot that I missed - but I didn't because I (still) suck. :oops: :) My grip came apart just enough during that string of shots, and you can see exactly where it did, because of the way the slide flipped instead of just tracked back and forward like it did with Haley, towards the end of that Magpul clip.
 

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Discussion Starter · #11 ·
proheath, I think you'll find the following videos by D.R.Middlebrooks very helpful, start at time-point 1:18 -

Pistol Shooting: The Ultimate Grip, Stance & Presentation. - YouTube

As the others have pointed out, it's "flip" because the web of your shooting hand is interacting with the back-strap/"beavertail" of the grip, effecting a pivot-point (fulcrum) as shown in the video above.

That causes the "equal and opposite reaction" of the energy of the discharged round - a force that is exerted straight back - to be turned into a "flip" of the muzzle.

Controlling recoil, in terms of the pistol, is to try to control that flip. Middlebrooks' "rolled over wrist lock" is his technique to do so, but many other exist, generalized under the modern "thumbs forward" technique - and you can see in this discussion on DC.com how different top shooters show variations on the overall technique: Proper Grip & Recoil Managment .

If you really wanted to get into a discussion on recoil management, there's a lot to talk about - yes, it's mainly about the grip, but there's also considerations for just how you manage your upper body, core, and even your stance will come into play. And just like how the "thumbs forward grip" isn't actually just one magic grip but is actually a set of different techniques with tweaked fine-points that each unique shooter finds to his/her advantage, you'll find the same variability exists with regards to upper body presentation and stance, also. ;)

Finally, remember that while recoil itself is objective, "recoil feel" is subjective, based on the shooter's own perceptions.

And to answer your questions above:

Upside-down, the flip would still occur "towards the earth," because now the heel of your hand provides that pivot point - here's some videos from some not-so-famous and famous shooters that shows this action:

Shooting my Ed Brown Special Forces .45 ACP upside down - YouTube
Evan Carson "Top Shot" shooting Glock 17 Upside Down w/ Pinky 2-Hole Group 9mm; Exhibition Shooter 2 - YouTube
IMPOSSIBLE 200 yard snub nose revolver shot- upside down, one handed, with pinky finger - YouTube

^ Notice in the Miculek video, the last one, at 1:07, that the muzzle also flipped towards the left (and then bobbed back towards the right). Again, physics: since he's shooting one-handed, there's no hand on that side to counter recoil versus the hand he has gripping the gun. Thus, instead of "straight back" you see the bucking towards the side that has no abutment against the force of the shot.

Here, Travis Haley (in his Magpul Dynamics days), demonstrates this "path of least resistance" concept, starting at time-point 2:18:

Travis Haley on Handgun Grip - YouTube


----

Personal example:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lAP2dfwnYSQ&feature=youtu.be

^ That's me in the summer of 2012. No, I'm not Costa, I'm the fat Chinese guy shooting. :lol:

Yes, the XD/XDm's bore axis is somewhat high, but really and honestly, that's the same with many other popular "duty" firearms (Sig, Beretta, and H&K, just off the top of my head; example: http://www.google.com/imgres?imgurl...ct=rc&uact=3&dur=848&page=9&start=162&ndsp=23). People really make a lot of this, but I really think it's quite subjective.

I'm just a recreational-level shooter, and a relative noob at that (I started shooting in November of 2010). You can see that my gun stays relatively flat during the course of that run, and what kind of pace I was setting (steel was quarter-scale Tac Strike [http://tacstrike.com/STEEL-TARGETS/1-4-Scale-Steel-Target-System.html], paper targets were VTAC:



- and the rules of the game was that shots on paper had to print inside the eye-box, the upper division of the A+0 head box, as delineated by it and the hashed line going through the nose). Any miss is an automatic DQ, and you can see that, aside from how nervous I was and messing up the 10-reload-10 :oops:, on the third shot of the last string of 5, the slide really moved all-over. Guess which shot I missed?

:)

If you want to go fast, you've gotta control recoil. Add in distance, and you'll need to see the sights. In the video below, Kyle Defoor gives one of the best break-downs of the classic "Bill Drill" I've ever gotten from an instructor:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tsO4KC-XmAI

^ It's been cited before here on XDTalk, but I think it's worth bringing up again, given the context of this discussion.

I'd have done pretty awesome in that end-of-day contest if I'd been able to hit the shot that I missed - but I didn't because I (still) suck. :oops: :) My grip came apart just enough during that string of shots, and you can see exactly where it did, because of the way the slide flipped instead of just tracked back and forward like it did with Haley, towards the end of that Magpul clip.
You, sir, are loaded with information. I'll actually read all that in a sec. I'm in the middle of cleaning my XDs, but took a quick break to post on here that I just passed my Texas CHL course and cert shot. :D

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^ Congrats!!!!

But wait, cleaning your XD?!

My range/training 3.8 Compact is now at something like 2.5K rounds without cleaning.... :lol:

OK, that's not completely fair. I do keep my carry 3.8 Compact clean enough to eat off of. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #13 ·
^ Congrats!!!!

But wait, cleaning your XD?!

My range/training 3.8 Compact is now at something like 2.5K rounds without cleaning.... :lol:

OK, that's not completely fair. I do keep my carry 3.8 Compact clean enough to eat off of. :)
Yikes!

I clean mine every time I'm done shooting. I've put roughly 800 rounds through it since I purchased it last Wednesday, and the first cartridge of each session never touched a dirty firearm.

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^ :) Since I have training/range copies, I have the luxury of running them dirty to see how long they can go. :)

As long as you keep the gun well-lubed, it should not be an issue that they're dirty.
 

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TSiWRX - I wanted to thank you for putting up that info. I've been meaning to start searching for it, because I know I can shoot with some decent precision but I know that I've got to get a heck of a lot faster if I'm going to start competing.

You may think you're an amateur, but you're full of great info and I love the way you present it. Keep at it!

Mancrush/bromance; I don't care what people say: I haz it. :lol:
 

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^ ROFL. :lol:

It's always good to hear from a friend again, but bro, I'm *TOTALLY* an amateur!!! I will thank you for the compliment, though! :blush: :)

If you've got precision down, then that's more than half the battle. Reining-in recoil is relatively easy - or so I think - compared to being truly good at precision and accuracy. For me, trigger-control is something that I think I'm going to be pursuing for the rest of my life: whereas things like grip, upper body presentation and lower body stance are things that, once you have down, you'll have down.

I'd start from the bottom up: develop your ideal stance first. It really doesn't matter what it is - if your body style and musculature fits Weaver, heck shoot Weaver. But whatever you do, do it consistently, so that you can optimize recoil mitigation.

There's always going to be academic disagreements and there's always going to be people who prove to be the exception, so don't pay too much attention to what *should* work - instead, find what works for you. Sure, people make fun of "the tactical turtle," but as an instructor recently pointed out, in shooters who have had a lot of combatives training, under stress, they'll tuck that chin instinctively: so the deciding factor then becomes whether it's worth it to train the shooter out of that so they can perhaps shave a tenth off the clock, or is it better to just let that go because it otherwise fits with *their* life?

Once you find something that you're comfortable with doing consistently, develop that consistency. Let that be the bedrock upon which you build your upper body presentation which, along with your core, overrides your legs in controlling recoil. Eventually, the idea is to just let the lower body "do its thing" while the upper body optimizes presentation - you can run, you can kneel, you can squat - divorce the two.

From there, work on both the technique of the grip and your grip strength. I recently cross-posted to a week-old thread where the OP asked a question on grip:

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xd-m-discussion-room-xd-m/257169-grip.html

Technique dominates over raw power, but if you can add raw physicality to technique, you'll be unstoppable: that gun will literally feel like a pea-shooter in your hands, and your sights will settle right back on-target.

In the end, it becomes that Bruce Lee/The Matrix-y "without form/'there is no spoon'" kind of gig - where the goal is to not let the position dictate how you shoot. The grip - most instructors say - is what allows you to shoot well, fast. You'll toss a shot if you don't have trigger control, that's a given, but that's not really the point of the Bill Drill, which already assumes a level of proficiency in the shooter, and is instead used to work speed: tracking the sights is directly related to your ability to mitigate recoil.

I made the mistake of focusing too much on recoil management when I started shooting: grip is a much sexier topic than trigger control. For this, I've had to back-track, and brother, let me tell you, it's hard. That you've got trigger control down pat before you move on to grip is, I think, the absolute better way to go. :)
 

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^ Congrats!!!!

But wait, cleaning your XD?!

My range/training 3.8 Compact is now at something like 2.5K rounds without cleaning.... :lol:

OK, that's not completely fair. I do keep my carry 3.8 Compact clean enough to eat off of. :)
I'm glad I am not the only one that likes to see how long they can do. It was my g17 against my buddies xd9. We gave up at somewhere in the mid 3k range. Moral of the story, both great guns..... I mean glocks suck.
 

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^ I really only take not cleaning two of my XDms to such extremes because I have the luxury of being able to do so - they're dedicated range/training guns, so if they fail...well, then at least I know why they failed. :)

I'm of the thinking that for a defensive or legal concealed-carry gun, really and honestly, if that gun can chew through at least one mag's worth of its designated defensive ammo (preferably, two, but honest, I've never had a chance to reload in any FoF I've done....), when the gun is totally clean and lubed, then aside from the Zombie Apocalypse or somesuch, it's probably more than good-to-go.

Luckily, I'm just an everyday Average-Joe citizen, not some supersoldierninja off in some Godforsaken desert-mud country somewhere: when I pull that gun out, it's probably going to be clean and well-lubed, and if I can shoot all 14 rounds that's in it and the 19 I carry on me as a spare, that's really all that I can ask for.

But knowing what kind of abuse they can withstand is certainly also not without value. There's great value in knowing that I can run hundreds upon thousands of rounds through my guns, "dry," as long as they're not exposed to dirt and debris. There's great value in knowing that if they are exposed to dirt and debris, I've either got about a 300-500 round running buffer if they're dry - or if I can keep it wet with lube, then it'll run thousands.

You know, just in case Zombies. ;)

But yea, my carry? Yep, it's clean enough to eat off of. :)


-----


Thanks @ JJ119 and entropy87 :) :blush:
 
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