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Discussion Starter #1
I bought a XD-9 used, which has XS Big Dot sights. The sight system seems awesome for fast, close range shooting and sucks for longer distance. I am probably going to put these sights on a XD-9 SC (had my XD-9 service for two days and already figuring out how to buy more!!) I found that out to about 15 yards, I could hold a reasonable "center-mass" group, though that group was larger than I can achieve with a 3-dot sight system.

This got me thinking- How far would a civilian in a defensive shooting incident ever shoot? I learned how to shoot a pistol back in Army basic training and shot to qualify at ranges in excess of what I think a civilian would ever need to be accurate at, but I could be wrong. My wife and I recently took a defensive pistol/CWP course (a pretty good one, we had to shoot 200 rds) and the instructor stated that a civilian would rarely, if ever, have to shoot beyond 10 FEET. This seems a bit short to me. My personal guess is defensive shooters need to be fast and accurate up to 10 YARDS to be effective. I would think that outside 10 yards (in an urban enviroment, not rural) one is better off attempting to retreat to cover/safety rather than attempting to engage a bg. Sure, I can and have hit man sized targets at 50 yards with a pistol offhand (and shooting very slowly, which would never happen if under fire.) I just cannot imagine a reasonable scenerio where I would need to do that in a civilian shooting situation.

So, any thoughts on how far a defensive pistol and shooter need to be accurate? Will a pistol with sights that perform fast and great to 15 yards and suck beyond be a good choice for a carry gun?
 

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I have XS sights on one of my Sigs and I think its fine fr what I would ever need. Ive read that most shootings are under 21 feet and I think the XS sight would be fine for out to 15 yards. As you stated, if im shooting that far, I might as well be going for cover.
 

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Avg shooting distance is less than 7yds, if you can get rapid center mass hits out to 15-20 yds you should be good to go. In a civialian shooting scenario if you can escape unless others are in danger I highly suggest you do and inform LE immediately. The whole Idea is a safe exit from the situation and to not endanger other innocents with a extended gun battle.
 

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When I go to the range I usually practice at the following distances in this order and speed.

7m-fast, 25m-slow, 7m-fast, 4m-combat fast with mag change. (Roughly 25 ft, 80 ft, 25 ft, and 13 ft) Each gets 25 rounds per taget except the 4m. That gets 5 rds per mag, 2 mags per target as fast as I can squeeze the trigger. I use B-29 silhouette targets.

My thinking is the first 7m is a warm up, the 25m is for accuracy training, the second 7m is for record, (I record my points every trip to the range) and the 4m is for practicing real life shooting with a holster draw and mag change.

If I ever shoot at anyone over 7m I'm going to have to work REAL hard to prove it was self-defense. 7m is more defensible in court and 4 m is probably what I would see in real life situations.

Just my opinion.
 

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I strongly suggest learning the concept of and practicing point shooting for "real world" preparedness. Remember that an individual who wants you dead can cross that 21 feet or less, and have a knife or anything else in you within 2 seconds or so. Exercising range habits(i.e. focusing on sight alignment, breathing control, etc.) will most likely get you killed if you are ever forced into this type of situation with nothing but range practice under your belt. Absolute speed and more or less accurate center mass(groin to chin) shot placement is what you will need.Of course, there are no guarantees that even if you do everything perfectly you will win the confrontation.However, it greatly increases your chances of survival.
 

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gsh341 said:
When I go to the range I usually practice at the following distances in this order and speed.

7m-fast, 25m-slow, 7m-fast, 4m-combat fast with mag change. (Roughly 25 ft, 80 ft, 25 ft, and 13 ft) Each gets 25 rounds per taget except the 4m. That gets 5 rds per mag, 2 mags per target as fast as I can squeeze the trigger. I use B-29 silhouette targets.

My thinking is the first 7m is a warm up, the 25m is for accuracy training, the second 7m is for record, (I record my points every trip to the range) and the 4m is for practicing real life shooting with a holster draw and mag change.

If I ever shoot at anyone over 7m I'm going to have to work REAL hard to prove it was self-defense. 7m is more defensible in court and 4 m is probably what I would see in real life situations.

Just my opinion.
+1

The only thing you might want to think about is your 4m shots. If you practice by always shooting 5 times and reloading for another 5, chances are when/if the SHTF that's exactly what you're going to do. Shoot 5 and reload instead of shooting until you *need* to reload.
 

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I usually try to do relatively realistic self-defense training when I go to the range. I generally use the "Coke can" rule for slow fire training and the "closed fist" rule for presentation drills and rapid fire. That is, I'll practice putting all of my shots (sixteen rounds) into the bottom of a Coke can (roughly, say, two inches) at a particular distance before moving back. If I can get it at seven yards that day, I'll move back to ten. If I can get it at ten, I'll move back to twelve. When I start having trouble, that's where I practice a while. For presentation drills, I'll work on drawing and firing one round in a second-and-a-half. When I can get all sixteen rounds into a group approximately the size of my closed fist (say, four inches) then I'll move back.

To mix things up, sometimes I'll slip an empty case into the magazine (at a point where I'm not exactly sure what shot it will be) for malfunction drills.

Weak hand drills are important too. I try to keep things interesting. Can I keep five shots in the black at twenty-five yards at the bench? Sure, but that likely won't apply much in the real world when it matters.

Virtually all of my practice is ten yards or less with fun things thrown in like weak-hand, presentation drills, and malfunction/clearance drills.

They say a slow hit beats a fast miss any day. This is true. But a fast hit is better than either. I'm not much good to myself in a self-defense situation if the only thing I'm adept at is shots at twenty-five yards when sitting down and supporting the gun on a bag. :)

Andy
 

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Discussion Starter #8
Good practice tips! Thanks all. The tactical pistol class my wife and I took was focused entirely on very fast shooting at > 10 feet. It was very interesting and an entirely new concept to me, vs. my other training/instruction.

Since taking the class I have been warming up with 7 yard slow fire, then 15, then 20, then 25, running 1-2 10rd mags at each distance. I then do double/triple taps at 10, 7, 3 yards. Then one mag of rapid fire at 10 and 7 feet and 1 mag with my weak hand at the same range. I then do a last mag at 5 feet firing from a retention stance. I am trying to blend target and defensive shooting. The ability to hit a target at 25+ yards may not have realistic defensive applications, but it does make me feel better. :)

The other part of all this is that I think I am going to try IDPA shooting. I have no idea if the XS Big Dot will work with this type of shooting.

Maybe I need another XD! Wife will love it- "But Honey, this pistol is my carry gun! I need another one for competition!" I have had the XD-9 for a week and she is already asking me if I am going to sell the other pistols since I obviously love the new one so much. Of course, she wants a XDSC now...
 

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I've been reading one of Chuck Taylor's books and he says that the vast majority of shootings take place in 7 feet or less. 7 feet...that's a scary thought. Which is why he practices drawing and shooting in about 1 second. Even so, that might not be enough time.
 

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21 feet is the "Tueller" drill--as somebody stated, a knife wielding attacker can close 21 feet before the average person could draw & fire. Shooting past 21 feet will be difficult to defend in court. You better have awful good justification for it.

Good on ya for practicing. Wish I could do more of that!
 

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In a local self defense shooting course I took, the instructor was big on shooting while seeking cover. One of the drills was a target on a pully set out at 25ft. When the drill began, the target came toward you rapidly and you had to draw and retreat backwards while firing. Sounds easy but trust me, you would be surprised! Has anyone else here been trained to shoot while moving? MUCH more difficult than I imagined.
 

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Gents - I practice what I preach and preach
what I practice:

4-4-40

That is: if I can hit a four inch mass from four feet
to fourty feet, I have done my job if called upon to
do it. Happy shooting.

Ed
 

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Ed Ely said:
Gents - I practice what I preach and preach
what I practice:

4-4-40

That is: if I can hit a four inch mass from four feet
to fourty feet, I have done my job if called upon to
do it. Happy shooting.

Ed



not quite that simple...
 

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Smokedawg said:
In a local self defense shooting course I took, the instructor was big on shooting while seeking cover. One of the drills was a target on a pully set out at 25ft. When the drill began, the target came toward you rapidly and you had to draw and retreat backwards while firing. Sounds easy but trust me, you would be surprised! Has anyone else here been trained to shoot while moving? MUCH more difficult than I imagined.
Start going to IDPA matches. You'll get a lot of opportunity to shoot while moving.
 

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Shooting while moving is one of the most valuable and neglected skills in tactical shooting. Amost all people are so used to keeping their feet planted while shooting at the range and that's what they end up doing...or moving too quickly and shooting so wildy that they hit everything but the target.

It's almost funny to watch these so called great "tactical shooters" shoot when you make them advance/retreat from a target or move side to side. They end up stoping everytime they pull the trigger or hardly making any quality hits. Shooting while moving is a skill like anything else that needs to be regularly worked on.

Even a slow moving target is much more difficult to hit than a stationary one...

If you are not behind cover, you better be moving to cover until all threats are eliminated...
 

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Lurch said:
...If you practice by always shooting 5 times and reloading for another 5, chances are when/if the SHTF that's exactly what you're going to do. Shoot 5 and reload instead of shooting until you *need* to reload.
I know what you are trying to say about habits, but I have one comment on how you worded it...You should never "need" to reload in a tactical situation. You should always be tac loading any chance you get to ensure you don't run dry and "need" to reload. No matter how fast you are with your dry gun mag change, I promise that I can get you faster with my gun still loaded :) .
 

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Hornetsnest said:
Shooting while moving is one of the most valuable and neglected skills in tactical shooting. Amost all people are so used to keeping their feet planted while shooting at the range and that's what they end up doing...or moving too quickly and shooting so wildy that they hit everything but the target.

It's almost funny to watch these so called great "tactical shooters" shoot when you make them advance/retreat from a target or move side to side. They end up stoping everytime they pull the trigger or hardly making any quality hits. Shooting while moving is a skill like anything else that needs to be regularly worked on.

Even a slow moving target is much more difficult to hit than a stationary one...

If you are not behind cover, you better be moving to cover until all threats are eliminated...
Let's be honest. The only way you will get any real training is if you are infantry and go to a real war. And even with that kind of training there are no guarantee's.
 

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one-eyed-fatman said:
Let's be honest. The only way you will get any real training is if you are infantry and go to a real war.
I don't consider "real war" as training...it's combat

Training is practice and the preseason..."real war" is gametime

one-eyed-fatman said:
...And even with that kind of training there are no guarantee's.
So why bother to train then right? I don't think I'm understanding what you're trying to say.
 

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And even with that kind of training there are no guarantee's.

So why bother to train then right? I don't think I'm understanding what you're trying to say.
Basically what I'm saying is some handgunner could get in a lucky shot. Also your not always going to be dealing with another handgunner. You just might be up against an AK or AR type weapon.

Your totally right about moving targets training. About the only place your going to get that is in a real war.
 
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