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Try over 100 years of service with the 1911...and there’s good reasons for it.

MP5 has been running, what...close to 60 years now? Again...there’s a reason.
Oh, don't get me wrong; they've got the pedigree and are deserving of praise (didn't mean to imply they weren't). What I meant to imply was that there will eventually be those elitists out there that will never touch any newer and more modern options because the MP5 is the ultimate sub gun and there can be no other... In a similar fashion to how there are people that will never touch a polymer framed handgun because the 1911 is the greatest handgun ever, as brought upon us by our lord and savior John Moses Browning (hallowed be thy name).

To an adjoining point, the fact that the manufacturing process and technology has caused the firearm to be remarkably expensive indicates that the firearm itself may be reaching obsolescence. Not ineffective or fully obsolete, but outdated, and newer platforms bring the same functional capabilities with less weight and lower cost. I mean, even the cheap clones of MP5s are REALLY expensive.
 

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Oh, don't get me wrong; they've got the pedigree and are deserving of praise (didn't mean to imply they weren't). What I meant to imply was that there will eventually be those elitists out there that will never touch any newer and more modern options because the MP5 is the ultimate sub gun and there can be no other... In a similar fashion to how there are people that will never touch a polymer framed handgun because the 1911 is the greatest handgun ever, as brought upon us by our lord and savior John Moses Browning (hallowed be thy name).

To an adjoining point, the fact that the manufacturing process and technology has caused the firearm to be remarkably expensive indicates that the firearm itself may be reaching obsolescence. Not ineffective or fully obsolete, but outdated, and newer platforms bring the same functional capabilities with less weight and lower cost. I mean, even the cheap clones of MP5s are REALLY expensive.
That's not the same issues... They roller delay was designed at the end of WWII to come up with a cheaper faster way to make guns. It never saw battle, but a stamped/rolled receiver is about as cheap and easy as it gets.

There is nothing inherently expensive about HK guts. RCM makes all parts in spec as good as HK for half the price. A full BCG is around $450 for 10mm. 9mm is cheaper. Yes I know you can get bottom of the barrel AR BCG for $100, but good ones are equal... Not to mention RCM is really the only game in town.

So expense comes from it being niche and rarity. Economies of scale. Barrels are barrels. Nothing super fancy about trigger packs. It's not because they are expensive to produce.
 

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That's not the same issues... They roller delay was designed at the end of WWII to come up with a cheaper faster way to make guns. It never saw battle, but a stamped/rolled receiver is about as cheap and easy as it gets.

There is nothing inherently expensive about HK guts. RCM makes all parts in spec as good as HK for half the price. A full BCG is around $450 for 10mm. 9mm is cheaper. Yes I know you can get bottom of the barrel AR BCG for $100, but good ones are equal... Not to mention RCM is really the only game in town.

So expense comes from it being niche and rarity. Economies of scale. Barrels are barrels. Nothing super fancy about trigger packs. It's not because they are expensive to produce.
I dunno, man. Zeniths are $1800 on the low end, I've seen Pakistani Ordnance Factory MP5s on sale for about $1350 (probably the most affordable), and PTRs are like $1600ish. Except for the Zenith, these aren't even whiz bang high speed low drag guns... and they are pricey! What really costs so much with the platform is the amount of time it takes to assemble. There is bending, pressing, pinning, welding, grinding down welds, and fitting. Since modern manufacturing favors automated processes like CNC milling/lathing and infusions molding, the manufacturing man power needed for MP5 production is significantly antiquated.

Most modern firearms are designed for mass production. Once machining is complete, everything can be pieced together using hand tools. No pressing, pinning, or welding necessary, which cuts down on the need for specialized labor.

The same thing goes for 1911s. A quality 1911 sees a lot of skilled hands that perform a lot of complex tasks. The more hands and fitting the gun gets, the more expensive it is. Most modern polymer handguns are designed for mass production, and see considerably fewer skilled hands because they require considerably less fitting, and are thus less expensive (not to mention plastic is cheaper and easier to shape). The design of the firearm resonates with the machining capabilities known in the era of its inception. What was the least expensive and quickest way to produce an MP5 when it was conceived is no longer the case. Modern machining technology can help speed up production and lower costs in machining, but certain tasks just can't be replaced with automation. This production process is only a contributing factor to the rarity and niche market.

ANYWAY, InRangeTV just did a head to head with an SP5 and a KE Arms KE9. Even with iron sights, the SP5 keeps up admirably well, but the AR had a few advantages the SP5 didn't. I'd like to see a 9mm Banshee pistol of equal barrel length go up against the SP5, quite honestly.

 

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I dunno, man. Zeniths are $1800 on the low end, I've seen Pakistani Ordnance Factory MP5s on sale for about $1350 (probably the most affordable), and PTRs are like $1600ish. Except for the Zenith, these aren't even whiz bang high speed low drag guns... and they are pricey! What really costs so much with the platform is the amount of time it takes to assemble. There is bending, pressing, pinning, welding, grinding down welds, and fitting. Since modern manufacturing favors automated processes like CNC milling/lathing and infusions molding, the manufacturing man power needed for MP5 production is significantly antiquated.

Most modern firearms are designed for mass production. Once machining is complete, everything can be pieced together using hand tools. No pressing, pinning, or welding necessary, which cuts down on the need for specialized labor.

The same thing goes for 1911s. A quality 1911 sees a lot of skilled hands that perform a lot of complex tasks. The more hands and fitting the gun gets, the more expensive it is. Most modern polymer handguns are designed for mass production, and see considerably fewer skilled hands because they require considerably less fitting, and are thus less expensive (not to mention plastic is cheaper and easier to shape). The design of the firearm resonates with the machining capabilities known in the era of its inception. What was the least expensive and quickest way to produce an MP5 when it was conceived is no longer the case. Modern machining technology can help speed up production and lower costs in machining, but certain tasks just can't be replaced with automation. This production process is only a contributing factor to the rarity and niche market.

ANYWAY, InRangeTV just did a head to head with an SP5 and a KE Arms KE9. Even with iron sights, the SP5 keeps up admirably well, but the AR had a few advantages the SP5 didn't. I'd like to see a 9mm Banshee pistol of equal barrel length go up against the SP5, quite honestly.

Sure, true. It's just not really black and white. Look at who buys. Look at the market. HK guns are twice the price from import fees. HK USA makes them for considerable less. I think HK USA does make this... At $2500 it's a bargain. Just true German parts alone for one are much more than that priced out. I get there is some old school labor involved, there is just other factors as well. Look how much you can get a bargain PSA AR-15 for compared to a HK416. Apples to apples New school manufacturing...
 

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Sure, true. It's just not really black and white. Look at who buys. Look at the market. HK guns are twice the price from import fees. HK USA makes them for considerable less. I think HK USA does make this... At $2500 it's a bargain. Just true German parts alone for one are much more than that priced out. I get there is some old school labor involved, there is just other factors as well. Look how much you can get a bargain PSA AR-15 for compared to a HK416. Apples to apples New school manufacturing...
You know, I think when Forgotten Weapons did a little post on the SP5, it has German proof marks on it. It's a total, pure bred German H&K. If it was made in the US, I think it will still be expensive. You know, because they are H&K, and they hate you... All of you.
 

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Oh... They totally hate us... But that's why all the dramatic price drops o their pistols. Some stuff was made here, but not fully. But now... I thought I stole my HK45 at $800 a few years ago. It can be had easily these days at $650 without much looking. My P30SK was $350. I nearly bought 2 just cause I thought you can't do a HK buy under $700. Times are good for HK fans.
 

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In my MP5 travels, I read an article from an old school FBI armorer going to Germany to be trained by real HK guys. He spoke of their contempt of most American cowboys and German superiority.

He would ask why this, and they would reference German superiority. It got to the Bolt Hold Open for FBI guns. The Germans said the action should always be closed. FBI guy said he wants to know when mag is empty. German said the bad guy might know when your mag is empty. FBI guy replied... Well when my mag is empty, at least ONE of us should know... German walked off muttering in German. :)

I thought it was hilarious. You could get the humor of the writer, and that he probably wasn't exaggerating. :)
 

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My favorite poly pistols are HKs, but I’d rather have an Edge pistol to be honest.
This. All day. With zero regrets. Though MP5 is iconic, a semi only does not move the needle enough for me. Used MP5SD before. Dream to shoot! Almost effortless, especially with all your gear on. That was a huge plus. But here we are many decades later. The cool factor is still 10+. Technology though has well and truly moved on for my SBR tastes.

To be clear, I understand the buzz completely!!!! Show me a new FG42 and I might not be able to contain myself.
 

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In my MP5 travels, I read an article from an old school FBI armorer going to Germany to be trained by real HK guys. He spoke of their contempt of most American cowboys and German superiority.

He would ask why this, and they would reference German superiority. It got to the Bolt Hold Open for FBI guns. The Germans said the action should always be closed. FBI guy said he wants to know when mag is empty. German said the bad guy might know when your mag is empty. FBI guy replied... Well when my mag is empty, at least ONE of us should know... German walked off muttering in German. :)

I thought it was hilarious. You could get the humor of the writer, and that he probably wasn't exaggerating. :)

I think I read the same piece. Was it from a former Delta operator? IIRC , he would come up with more efficient ways to accomplish tasks and the Germans would be horrified. They told him to not let the other students see him doing certain things but it was ok for him to do it on his own. Hilarious!!!!
 

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This. All day. With zero regrets. Though MP5 is iconic, a semi only does not move the needle enough for me. Used MP5SD before. Dream to shoot! Almost effortless, especially with all your gear on. That was a huge plus. But here we are many decades later. The cool factor is still 10+. Technology though has well and truly moved on for my SBR tastes.
But it's not a SBR, it's a SMG. And what it was designed for, as you well know, it crushes.

Me personally, a 9mm semi-auto PDW doesn't do it for me either. But there are other calibers that do.

Me personally, I can think of a few SRBs that interest me, but neutering a AR to 10 to blow rifles rounds and see how big a fireball blast I can make holds zero interest for me. Big rifles neutered to a PDW is a good thing. A pistol trying to be a rifle isn't either. There's platfoms that fill roles well... Me personally... I'm dumbfounded at the current I want a rifle pistol craze. Marketing I guess...JMHO... YMMV ;)
 

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I think I read the same piece. Was it from a former Delta operator? IIRC , he would come up with more efficient ways to accomplish tasks and the Germans would be horrified. They told him to not let the other students see him doing certain things but it was ok for him to do it on his own. Hilarious!!!!
I think it was... Guy didn't seem to be bragging... Just a funny highlight of cowboys and Germans. :)
 

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I mean, I absolutely love MP5's....but for 2800, I'm gonna get two CZ Scorpions, a **** load of mags and a few thousand rounds on 9mm.

Now, if I could get an actual MP5 SD for that...oh hell yeah.

....I was looking at the POF MP5's on Atlantic's website though...just because I want one of those and a Beretta 92 because it's Christmas season and I'll be watching Die Hard...
 
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