[Knightslugger]

I'm looking at buying a Redding neck only sizer (not sure if I want the competition or Type S yet...) that does not come with the "Popular bushings". Since this kind of sizing only operation is new to me, i'm not really sure i know how to go about choosing the correct bushing size. .241 .243 and .245 are the norm, and this is going to be used in a gas gun, so i can't afford to have bullet tension on the light side like i can on my .308 bolt action...

Some help from the peanut gallery is appreciated!

 

[GT Jon]

Correct me if I'm wrong, but I thought all autoloader brass has to be full-length resized to work?

 

[Knightslugger]

I don't see it that it is. It will need full length sizing if shot from a different rifle than it was once fired in that chamber. Full length sizing isn't required so long as it's always shot out of that rifle as that case is fire formed to that chamber so fits like a glove. neck only sizing helps keep brass from being over worked prolonging life.

handgun brass, i think full length sizing is required across the board. rifles, not so much.

I'm always up for an education though...

 

[57K]

I don't see it that it is. It will need full length sizing if shot from a different rifle than it was once fired in that chamber. Full length sizing isn't required so long as it's always shot out of that rifle as that case is fire formed to that chamber so fits like a glove. neck only sizing helps keep brass from being over worked prolonging life.

handgun brass, i think full length sizing is required across the board. rifles, not so much.

I'm always up for an education though...

KS, that is the case for bolt-action, single shot and other non-repeating rifles. For autoloaders, full-length resizing is more about feed reliability. I won't say that you can't just neck size because that might be individual rifle dependent. So have you neck-sized-only for your AR before, and if so, how did it work out? Fred will be by before long I'm sure, and he does handload .223 for ARs, IIRC.

 

[Knightslugger]

well as i said, this is my first foray into neck only sizing .223, much less a gas gun, and my other rifle is a .308 Win bolt action that i am trying to accurize with load development scrutiny. my father has a forester neck die that i get to use. The loads that we have now we're going through 308 brass like crazy (head speration, neck splits, headspace), our concentricy is all over the place. We aim to compete so we are trying to squeeze every grain of performance out of our rifles. we're going to start saving the brass from each rifle seperately (between the two of us, we have eight 308 Win chambers the brass shares).

weather or not they feed, i wont know until i try. the fired brass plops right into the chamber though, to no surprise to mine.

 

[fredj338]

IMO, even using brass from that gun only, neck sizing for an AR will eventually cause a FT chamber. There just isn't enough camming action for a tight piece of brass, dirty chamber, etc. Still, if you want to give it a try, measure the OD of your fired case, subtract 0.002" for sizing & start there. You may find you have to adjust for diff brands of brass too. Another reason neck sizing in an Ar is problematic.

 

[Knightslugger]

FT Chamber?

oh Fail To Chamber.

Narf!

The reason I want to do this, instead of full length sizing, is to keep the measured volume of the case consistent in this lot. If i start sizing the brass first i'm going to modify the internal volume of the case to be smaller. The case is thicker as you go down, so a squish at the bottom really takes away from the volume. It gets kinda nutty. That and i'd have to devise some sort of plug for the flash hole in order to measure volume.

I'm going to be buying a 50 round box of noslers and if i'm successful at using neck sized fire-formed only brass here, using the nosler for 30 loadings will be a breeze.

IF mind you.

 

[GT Jon]

Plug for the flash hole? Would a spent primer work if the brass is once-fired (and the original primer is kept in place)? What about modeling clay? That should seal it up without being impossible to remove.

 

[Knightslugger]

that's what i'm using now is the spent primer, but in an unsized case.

There's got to be a better solution than modeling clay...

 

[fredj338]

that's what i'm using now is the spent primer, but in an unsized case.

There's got to be a better solution than modeling clay...

If you are measuring internal volume after sizing, just size w/o the expander/decapper in place. Good luck with the neck sizing for the AR, keep us posted.

 

[arizona98tj]

well as i said, this is my first foray into neck only sizing .223, much less a gas gun, and my other rifle is a .308 Win bolt action that i am trying to accurize with load development scrutiny. my father has a forester neck die that i get to use. The loads that we have now we're going through 308 brass like crazy (head speration, neck splits, headspace), our concentricy is all over the place. We aim to compete so we are trying to squeeze every grain of performance out of our rifles. we're going to start saving the brass from each rifle seperately (between the two of us, we have eight 308 Win chambers the brass shares).

That doesn't sound right....or maybe your definition of "like crazy" isn't what it is to me. How many reloads are you typically getting on the brass?

 

[fredj338]

Anytime you get head seps, something is either wrong with the rifle or the die setup or both. Especially if neck sizing, a head sep should never happen ever. The case shoulder or neck should fail before the case stretches enough to give a head sep.
My long range rig is a M700 in 260ai. Using neck sized brass, I can get 8 loadings before I even think of trimming. Never had a head sep, not in some 1200rds, 3 diff brands of brass. Even in my 20" hvy AR, FL sizing, I lose brass to shoulder or neck splits, never a head sep.

 

[Knightslugger]

Anytime you get head seps, something is either wrong with the rifle or the die setup or both. Especially if neck sizing, a head sep should never happen ever. The case shoulder or neck should fail before the case stretches enough to give a head sep.
My long range rig is a M700 in 260ai. Using neck sized brass, I can get 8 loadings before I even think of trimming. Never had a head sep, not in some 1200rds, 3 diff brands of brass. Even in my 20" hvy AR, FL sizing, I lose brass to shoulder or neck splits, never a head sep.

right, but you're only using that 260ai in that one rifle. That's not the case with our .308's. there's the M1aNM, the 2 AR10's, my R700, his R700, a Winchester 70 actioned Obermeyer barrel, a BUG (Mauser action mated to a heavy .30 cal machinegun barrel), the Fr. MAS... we have to FL size the bulk of our reloads otherwise they chamber for **it in just about everything, and it's my belief that we are suffering consistency issues because of it.

every time we go out shooting, we loose about 4 out of 80 rounds expended, sometimes more. I have no idea how many times these babies have been reloaded. We need to refresh our brass reserves. We're mostly using some LC NM from the 70's but there's some India National M80 mixed in there that is proving to be pretty decent brass (if nothing else).

 

[fredj338]

right, but you're only using that 260ai in that one rifle. That's not the case with our .308's. there's the M1aNM, the 2 AR10's, my R700, his R700, a Winchester 70 actioned Obermeyer barrel, a BUG (Mauser action mated to a heavy .30 cal machinegun barrel), the Fr. MAS... we have to FL size the bulk of our reloads otherwise they chamber for **it in just about everything, and it's my belief that we are suffering consistency issues because of it.

every time we go out shooting, we loose about 4 out of 80 rounds expended, sometimes more. I have no idea how many times these babies have been reloaded. We need to refresh our brass reserves. We're mostly using some LC NM from the 70's but there's some India National M80 mixed in there that is proving to be pretty decent brass (if nothing else).

Try this. Take your FL sizing die & set it up so it will partial FL size to fit all the rifles. Yes, it is a compromise, but you should get a bit longer case life. Try & isolate which rifles are causing head seps. Even FL sizing, specs shouldn't be off that much, something is wrong with the headspace of one or more of the rifles, probably the older Mauser & certainly the MAS, known for excessive headspace. I FL size for 3 diff AR, I have never had a headsep. The only time I got close, one of my single shots using 9.3x74 brass from Norma & not partial FL sizing. At 5 firings, I was seeing signs. I switched to RWS brass, much thicker, & started partial FL sizing so the lever on my #1 just snaps closed. Caliber is 338X74K.

 

[Knightslugger]

none of the .223 have failed from head sep either, just the .308, and i think it's because of the M1a. that rifle eats more of our cases than any of them. and the AR10's seem to prefer SB FL sizing over regular FL sizing.

only had 1 338LM case failure so far. I almost cried when i saw it.

 

[JustSomeGuy]

Like Fred said, you absolutely must determine which rifles are causing the head separations. Take 2 rifles to the range, shoot them, leave the others at home. Next time take two other rifles, leave the rest home, and so on, until you get some reliable data on when and with what rifles you are experiencing these problems. There is no other way. You may be close to losing something more than a piece or two of brass.

 

[cecil]

"a BUG (Mauser action mated to a heavy .30 cal machinegun barrel)," Resizing for a variety of actions, especially an old machine gun barrel, means setting the shoulder back far enough to chamber in all actions. If you have one rifle with excessive headspace or long cut chamber, you may have to excessively size it back. This may lead to head separations.


Just neck sizing for a semi auto , especially direct impingement gas operated one with a floating firing pin, is ill advised. Striving for normal setback of the shoulder during full length sizing would be better advised. This is why people familiar with reloading for semi's advise not to neck size.


What primer are you planning on using?

 

[Knightslugger]

CCI No. 41, WSR or BR4 or 7 1/2. why would that matter?

why do i want to bump the shoulder back?

 

[fredj338]

CCI No. 41, WSR or BR4 or 7 1/2. why would that matter?

why do i want to bump the shoulder back?

Potential slam fire, rare, but can happen. It's just tough to get neck sized brass to run 100% safely in any semi. Try if you like, but risk may out weigh any reward.

 

[cecil]

CCI No. 41, WSR or BR4 or 7 1/2. why would that matter?

why do i want to bump the shoulder back?

Different primers have differing hardness. While I don't use Win sr primers, they may be considerably softer than the others. Have you ever looked at a 223 round that had been chambered, not fired than ejected? Might take note if there is a dimple on the primer. Now take away any freedom of forward movement in the chamber, combined with soft primer and a dirty operating system.


I have experienced "doulbling" in a sks, when trying softer fed primers. Now make sure my 223 and 308's use harder primers.


Not trying to be ignorant, but neck sizing vs full length sizing for semi's has been an old question, covered in most reloading manuals. And yes I know not all semi's have floating firing pins.


A way of measuring headspace is a good thing, and would politely advise you to set shoulders back at least .003-.005 on semi's. This helps cover not all cases will be sized the same.