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Discussion Starter #1
I will try to make this short.

Recently I picked up a "H&R Handy Gun" (.410). A person's grandfather passed away and I ended up with purchasing this gun for $50. I knew nothing about this gun other than it looked neat so I purchased it. Well after getting home, I started doing some research and it appears that this gun is a banned weapon?

Is this the case? Is it just illegal to sell the weapon or is it illegal for it to be just hanging out in my gun safe?

I have seen some of these for sale (gunbroker) and they seem to have quite the price tag as well. I'm just curious how these people are able to sell them or have them if they are illegal.

Also here is another question. This question might sound dumb but I'm just repeating what I heard (not a very credible source), but neither here nor there. I was told that if the gun was dissasembled (meaning barrel away from the rest) that the gun was perfectly legal to have in my possesion. The person said in that case it was not considered a gun? Is there any truth to that?

This person also said that it was ok to have the gas block to make my AR full auto, just as long as it wasn't on my gun everything was perfectly legal as well. Any truth to that? (and no, I don't own any fully auto parts or for that matter have any desire to).


Thanks in advance for any help.
 

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Your source is an idiot.

That's an NFA weapon; simple possession is a big time felony (just "hanging out in your safe" is possession, BTW) without proper paperwork. And you kinda have to have the paperwork filled out before you possess the weapon. It'd also be illegal to sell it (paperwork again).

Do what you wish, but I'd take a chop saw to it real quick, and destroy it.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
So whether its all together or in 50 parts, it's still illegal?

And for the record I pretty much assumed he was wrong, but then a bunch of other people started jumping on his ship during the conversation, leaving me the odd man out.
 

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I suggest you contact BATFE, its considered a class 3. The person who sold it to you did so illegally. Take the barrel of a give it to a friend, keep the receiver, then fill out a form 1 asking to manufacture an SBS

Heres the info for the closest BATFE office
210 Walnut, Room 707
Des Moines, Iowa 50309 USA
Voice (515) 362-4000
Fax (515) 362-4002
 

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Discussion Starter #5
Can you explain more on what the Form 1 or manufacture an SBS means?

I know the person (female, older) didn't sell it to me illegally on purpose. Just a simple barn find that she didn't want to keep. I know that means nothing in the eyes of the law, I'm just throwing it out there.

Also, with filling out this form am I going to get into trouble for already having this gun?

I'm not trying to do anything illegal, but I'm also not trying to get in trouble for what I've already done either.
 

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GO GET YOUR $50 bucks back immediatly, and give them back the gun!


Q: The types of firearms that must be registered in the National Firearm Registration and Transfer Record are defined in the NFA and 27 CFR, Part 479. What are some examples?Some examples of the types of firearms that must be registered are:
  • Machine guns;
  • The frames or receivers of machine guns;
  • Any combination of parts designed and intended for use in converting weapons into machine guns;
  • Any part designed and intended solely and exclusively for converting a weapon into a machine gun;
  • Any combination of parts from which a machine gun can be assembled if the parts are in the possession or under the control of a person;
  • Silencers and any part designed and intended for fabricating a silencer;
  • Short-barreled rifles;
  • Short-barreled shotguns;
  • Destructive devices; and,
  • “Any other weapon.”
A few examples of destructive devices are:
  • Molotov cocktails;
  • Anti-tank guns (over caliber .50);
  • Bazookas; and,
  • Mortars.
A few examples of “any other weapon” are:
  • H&R Handyguns;
  • Ithaca Auto-Burglar guns;
  • Cane guns; and,
  • Gadget-type firearms and “pen” guns which fire a projectile by the action of an explosive.
[26 U.S.C. 5845]

Q: How can an individual legally acquire NFA firearms?Basically, there are 2 ways that an individual (who is not prohibited by Federal, State, or local law from receiving or possessing firearms) may legally acquire NFA firearms:
  1. By transfer after approval by ATF of a registered weapon from its lawful owner residing in the same State as the transferee.
  2. By obtaining prior approval from ATF to make NFA firearms.
[27 CFR 479.62-66 and 479.84-86]
Q: What is the tax on making an NFA firearm?The tax is $200 for making any NFA firearm, including “any other weapon.”
Q: How is this tax paid?A money order or check made payable to the Bureau of ATF together with the application forms are to be mailed to the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch.
Q: What is an unserviceable firearm?An unserviceable firearm is defined as one which is incapable of discharging a shot by means of an explosive and which is incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition.
An acceptable method of rendering most firearms unserviceable is to fusion weld the chamber closed and fusion weld the barrel solidly to the frame. Certain unusual firearms require other methods to render the firearms unserviceable.
An unserviceable NFA firearm is still subject to the controls of the NFA, but may be transferred tax free as a curio or ornament.
[26 U.S.C. 5845(h) and 5852, 27 CFR 479.11and 479.91]
Q: What happens when a State acquires an unregistered NFA firearm through seizure or abandonment?When a State wants to keep such NFA firearms for official use, they must be registered by filing ATF Form 10 (5320.10) with the Bureau of ATF, NFA Branch.
Since approval of the Form 10 is conditioned on an “official use only” basis, subsequent transfers will not be approved except if the transfer is to another government agency for official use.
[27 CFR 479.104]
Q: May a private citizen who owns an NFA firearm which is not registered have the firearm registered?No. The NFA permits only manufacturers, makers, and importers to register firearms. Mere possessors may not register firearms. An unregistered NFA firearm is a contraband firearm, and it is unlawful to possess the weapon. The possessor should contact the nearest ATF office to arrange for its disposition.
[26 U.S.C. 5861(d)]
Q: What can happen to someone who has an NFA firearm which is not registered to him?Violators may be fined not more than $250,000, and imprisoned not more than 10 years, or both. In addition, any vessel, vehicle or aircraft used to transport, conceal or possess an unregistered NFA firearm is subject to seizure and forfeiture, as is the weapon itself.
[49 U.S.C. 781-788, 26 U.S.C. 5861 and 5872]
Q: What should a person do if he or she comes into possession of an unregistered NFA firearm?Contact the nearest ATF office immediately.
 

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Discussion Starter #7
Sounds like that's probably the best route. I will probably return it and have her destroy it.

What a shame, its a neat old gun. Another question, is it possible to take it to a gun smith and have it made so that it cannot fire and then it will be legal? But I'm guessing a gun smith won't even touch it.
 

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Can you explain more on what the Form 1 or manufacture an SBS means?
QUOTE]


From what Ive read on the subject(as nfa's are illegal in stupid illinois) as long as your not in possession of the parts (i.e. the barrel) its fine. as for the form http://www.atf.gov/forms/download/atf-f-5320-1.pdf theres a $200 dollar tax stamp

However, I would try to inquire about the status of said weapon. does it have a serial number?
 

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Found this on another site. I wonder if you take the barrel of and give it back to the guy you bought it from and then did your paperwork if it would be legal again. Also, I read that if the barrel is rifled and not smooth bore, then it is not NFA.

Section 2.5 Removal of firearms from the scope of the NFA by modification/elimination of components.

Firearms, except machineguns and silencers, that are subject to the NFA fall within the various definitions due to specific features. If the particular feature that causes a firearm to be regulated by the NFA is eliminated or modified, the resulting weapon is no longer an NFA weapon.

For example, a shotgun with a barrel length of 15 inches is an NFA weapon. If the 15- inch barrel is removed and disposed of, the remaining firearm is not subject to the NFA because it has no barrel.
Likewise, if the 15 inch barrel is modified by permanently attaching an extension such that the barrel length is at least 18 inches and the overall length of the weapon is at least 26 inches, the modified
firearm is not subject to the NFA. NOTE: an acceptable method for permanently installing a barrel extension is by gas or electric steel seam welding or the use of high temperature silver solder having a
flow point of 1100 degrees Fahrenheit.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Unfortunately the bore is smooth on it, so it is the illegal one. Dang. It does have all the serial numbers, but I have no paper work, nor does the person I got it from.

I'm just wonder if I can bring in the reciever trigger assembly, firing pin area, and have some gun smith take the gun to a non firing state, just so I can have the gun as a collector piece that doesnt fire.
 

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looked up some pictures of these and it looks like a cool little gun....hope things work out for you and you end up being able to keep it...:cry:
 

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I would just contact them and find out if it were registered in the past and if so what it would take to transfer/sale it to you.

That may make it worthwile. Otherwise, just giving it back to them, they will probably not destroy it and put it off and who knows what happens to it..
 

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So whether its all together or in 50 parts, it's still illegal?

And for the record I pretty much assumed he was wrong, but then a bunch of other people started jumping on his ship during the conversation, leaving me the odd man out.
No, taking a chop saw to it means you DESTROY IT. If the receiver is cut and unrepairable, you're in the clear. Hell, use a big red & green smoke wrench, whatever...because, as of right now, you're committing a felony. And talking about it on the interweb, too, I may add.

If you simply disaasemble it, so it can be put back together again...it's a felony.

Just having the receiver, whether you give the barrels to a friend or not--felony. The receiver is the firearm.

Unless you like the idea of Federal prison...then, by all means, try to get cute with it.
 

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No, taking a chop saw to it means you DESTROY IT. If the receiver is cut and unrepairable, you're in the clear. Hell, use a big red & green smoke wrench, whatever...because, as of right now, you're committing a felony. And talking about it on the interweb, too, I may add.

If you simply disaasemble it, so it can be put back together again...it's a felony.

Just having the receiver, whether you give the barrels to a friend or not--felony. The receiver is the firearm.

Unless you like the idea of Federal prison...then, by all means, try to get cute with it.
Give it back to the guy you got it from. After a little reading, if a gun has not been registered i.e. grandpa had it sitting in a box for 50 years and has now past and there is no paperwork, the gun is considered contraband and cannot be registered. The guy you got it from would then need to contact the BATFE for disposition of the gun.

Bottom line, give it back immediately and chalk it up as a learning experience.

Pulled from an ATF form.
http://www.atf.gov/publications/download/p/atf-p-5320-8/atf-p-5320-8-chapter-2.pdf

2.1.9 Unserviceable firearm. An unserviceable firearm is a firearm that is incapable of discharging a shot by the action of an explosive and is incapable of being readily restored to a firing condition. The most common method for rendering a firearm unserviceable, and that recommended by ATF, is to weld the chamber of the barrel closed and weld the barrel to the receiver.21 The chamber of the barrel should be plug welded closed and all welds should be full fusion, deep penetrating, and gas or electric steel welds. In instances where the above procedure cannot be employed to render a firearm unserviceable, FTB should be contacted for alternate methods. It is important to remember that rendering a firearm unserviceable does not remove it from the definition of an NFA firearm. An unserviceable NFA firearm is still subject to the import, registration, and transfer provisions of the NFA. However, there is no tax imposed on the transfer of an unserviceable firearm.
 

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As it stands right now....you just admitted you BOTH partook in the exchange of a NFA weapon without the tax stamp. He sold it without being a Class III dealer, and you bought it without the authorization or transfer (and paying the tax) of the weapon...BOTH ILLEGAL AS HELL!

Dude...I dunno what to tell you man...give it back...get your money back...and hope someone doesn't figure out who you are

Next time you buy a gun...do a bit of research before you end up behind bars because someone ELSE screwed up.
 

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i would destroy it.
a$50 dollar guns not worth a 200 tax stamp.
and transferring that weapon either by sale or just giving it away is a felony.
chop that gun into pieces and never look back
 

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Discussion Starter #17
Just to give an update. The gun is back to the person I got it from and was detroyed. Thanks for all your advice. I didn't want no part of that after reading what you guy's had to say.

Again thanks. And it was sad to see it demolished by a huge sleg on that cement floor. From there, they proceeded with a hand grinder and a cutting disk.
 

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There was a window for registration back in the 1930's. If the Handigun was not registered it can't be registered after that date, therefore; illegal to own forever.
 

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This is the kind of nonsense that weenies at BATF make their promotions on.

The gun could have been registered for a period of time after the NFA act in 1934, but once that window expired, the gun became contraband and could never be made "legal". The transfer to you is improper in any case, unless you have the $200 tax stamp BEFORE you take possession.

Get rid of it or risk a federal felony.

Say nothing more about it to anyone, especially on internet gun forums.

 

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If it is illegal for its length just ad a choke or something to the barrel and you are done why destroy it. If it was sold as a pistol and needs to have a rifled barrel get rid of the barrel and put on a rifled one. You probably could sell the barrel for a little to help pay for a rifled one. Gun is only illegal if barrel and receiver are together keep at different houses problem solved. If you are still upset by it sell all of the parts off. People panic over things just fix what makes it illegal. P.S. your friend is an idiot the gas block is not what makes an AR full or semi auto.
 
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