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Discussion Starter #1
Wow! I wanted to share this with all of you. Some of you might already do this, and that's cool. It's new to me, so I'm excited.

My fiancee and I went to the range yesterday. There was a guy there who is a sergeant is the (Army I think) practicing. While I was shooting my "regular" speed and stance and grip, I heard some rapid fire coming from 2 booths down from me. I glanced over at his target, and watched a piece of paper disappear from the center after each shot. 6 shots all done in about 4 seconds. I was like :shock: :!:

At the cease fire call, I asked who was in booth #4 doing rapid fire. He said it was him, and I asked how he could stay on target shooting that fast. He said he'd show me. And man, did he. I watched him demonstrate with his gun, and then he said for me to get ready and he'd come over and watch/show me. Well, I started shooting how I've been shooting (cup/saucer grip), isosceles triangle stance... I got a few low-left shots, and some at least near bulls-eye...

He had me hold my gun a lot differently, and moved my feet around into a modified isosceles stance, I leaned INTO the shot, bent my arms more, and focused on the front sight more. He had me pay attention to the trigger, and keep my finger "married to" the trigger, and feel the "click" and then squeeze again. I was shooting rapid fire now. And, while I'm still shooting some low-left, I got some good groups. And that was WITH rapid fire. This new method will work w/ slow more "aimed" fire as well.

I need to practice on the new grip/stance, but I like it. It's a more "aggressive" way of standing and shooting. I think it's perfect practice for real-world scenarios of self defense, where you'd want to get as many shots off as soon as possible, to stop a threat. It also allows for quick movement of your feet IF you need to move around while shooting. It also allows for easier clearing of FTF/FTE issues. He demonstrated all these key points while we watched. I think was drooling slightly. LOL.

And with his 1" groups, all centered, in a few seconds, I think he knows what he's talking about. :D He said he used to be a military and civilian instructor.

All I know is that I've found a new way to shoot. It's more comfortable for me (grip, stance, trigger finger), more practical (for SD), feels better (comfort level, aggressive feeling), recovery is faster (get back on target in less time), and more accurate (overall) for me. I had 4 shots in the paper, touching each other, in a slightly curving line. Yeah, TOUCHING each other. I can't remember getting shots that close together before.

I just wanted to share this with everyone. I'm not saying you need to change your ways, but I'm definitely going to change mine and adopt this new style, for both slow and rapid fire. Whoohoo! I'm excited!
 

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Excellent. Wish I could run into someone like that at my range. Any chance of getting some pictures to help us visualize your grip/stance/etc?
 

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Yes, please post some pics, sounds very interesting and worth a look and try!!
 

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PIX PLEASE!
 

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can you read this article (http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob85.html) and comment whether that was the stance he was showing you?

The “power stance”
I’ve found that stance is the one thing I’m likely to have to correct first, even when teaching the experienced shooter. The edgeways stance of the duelist is necessary for skateboarding or surfing, but counter-productive to good shooting. If one heel is behind the other, the body does not have good lateral balance and will tend to sway sideways. (The miss will most commonly go toward the strong hand side.) If the feet are squared off parallel, in the old “police academy position” so often seen on TV, the body does not have good front to back balance, and the shots will tend to miss either high or low, most commonly the latter.

You want to be in a fighter’s stance, a boxer’s stance, what a karate practitioner would call a “front stance.” The lower body needs a pyramidal base, a triangle with depth. If you are right handed and firing with your strong hand only, the pelvis wants to be at about a 45 degree angle vis-à-vis the target, with your left leg to the rear. If you are shooting two-handed and are right hand dominant, the hips still want that 45-degree angle but the left leg should now be forward and the right leg back. Now you’re balanced forward and balanced back, balanced left and balanced right. It’ll be easier to hold the gun on target.

In rapid fire, the shoulders want to be forward. This will get body weight in behind the gun and help control recoil. For very precise slow fire, some shooters like to cantilever the shoulders to the rear. This may make the gun seem to hang steadier with less effort, but it will cause the gun to jump up sharply upon recoil. This not only slows down your rate of sustained fire, but subconsciously, the more the muzzle jumped at the last shot, the more likely you are to jerk the trigger on the next one. Personally, I use the power stance with the shoulders at least slightly forward even in slow fire. Master shooters have a phrase that helps them remember this principle more easily: “Nose over toes.”
 

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Discussion Starter #6
Well, I didn't take any pictures on Sunday (didn't have my camera with me). I did call the range and ask if bringing cameras is prohibited. It's not, so next time I go I will take my camera along. The booth is kind of tight, so I'm not sure how good the picture will be to show you my stance/grip/etc. In the meantime, I'll try to explain it in words:

The Sergeant said the stance is a modified isosceles. You take your feet, sort of shoulder width apart, but put your "strong foot" back a little. You lean forward some (sort of lean into the target, be aggressive), and stand on the balls of your feet. Bend your knees slightly. This allows you to move around if you need to while shooting.

I've been doing the cup/saucer grip. He said that doesn't help w/ diverting the kinetic energy from the shot into your arms for faster recovery. [This is also why maybe I keep shooting low left - the gun moves too much]. In that case, the energy goes out to the left through the frame of the gun. This will allow more movement since you only have one hand absorbing the shock. My "saucer" hand doesn't really help at all, other than to support the gun (not absorb energy).

The new grip is this: strong hand holds the gun as normal (up high on the frame, fingers wrapped around to hold the gun), but the other hand wraps around the strong hand, so that your thumbs sort of touch each other. They don't really hold the gun, but float. Put them somewhere comfortable, but they don't grip the gun at all. I put my strong thumb next to the slide lock lever, and my other thumb rests on top of that one (or just below it - doesn't matter). Your palms should be "cushioning" the whole gun, kind of squeezing the frame w/ your palms AND fingers at same time. Your touching (or almost touching) palms act as the shock absorbers, transferring the kinetic energy into your arms.

Your arms should be bent some at the elbows, not straight out. Bring the gun UP TO your face, don't tilt your head down to the gun. Once you've identified your target, you don't need to really "look at it" anymore. You know where/what it is. Focus on the front sight only. Keep the sight fixed on your target, and keep your eye(s) (depending how you aim - one eye, both eyes) on the front sight. The XD is good for this method, since the natural grip angle should pretty much keep you lined up on target w/ both sights, even though you're focusing on the front sight only.

The key to rapid fire is the triggering (from what I figured out). He said to keep my trigger finger married to the trigger. When you fire, don't "cycle" the trigger all the way out, so you have to squeeze it the whole way again. After you fire a shot, let the trigger back only UNTIL YOU FEEL/HEAR THE CLICK, then pull back again. You reduce the distance your trigger moves, which reduces time between shots. Everything I've said works together, in keeping your front sight on target all the time, your body absorbs the recoil better and faster for a faster recovery and shot on the target. He mentioned something about how the sight will appear to make a figure-8 while the gun cycles. He said it's an optical illusion, and that you'll still be on target when the trigger is ready to fire again.

Sort of to summarize all the key points: Overall, keep your eyes on the front sight, and keep your trigger finger only moving the distance to the click. Your stance allows you to absorb the recoil much better, allowing for fast recovery. The forward lean helps you "feel" focused and aggressive to the target. Your stance also allows for controlled movement in the event you have to start moving left or right while firing on your target. Your bent elbows and "full hands" grip on the gun absorbs the recoil faster to allow you faster shooting (rapid fire). The one foot back a little keeps you balanced front-to-back AND left-to-right better.

The "full hands" grip also keeps your hands right there in case of a malfunction, or for changing magazines. He simulated a FTF while holding his gun. His strong hand NEVER changed position or grip on the gun. His weak hand did all the work. He "dips" his gun to the right w/ his strong hand while his weak hand racks the slide to clear the FTF. Round falls, lets go of the slide, all while his weak hand is gripping the gun properly again, and he's back on target, with barely any time lost. Also, for switching magazines: His strong hand never leaves positioning on the frame (location and tightness never change). This allows the weak hand to be moving to get the next mag while the strong hand's free-floating thumb hits the mag release button. Mag drops while new mag is going in via weak hand. Slide is already open because the way the gun works (empty mag = it locks open automatically). Weak hand back into the "full hands" grip, free floating thumb hits slide release lever and back on target all ready for more shooting.

I watched him demonstrate a mag change. He had 6 shots in the first mag, 3 shots in the second mag. He kept the spare mag on his belt (left front) in a fancy mag holder thing. Never once did his eyes go off of the front sight, and he kept the gun aimed at the target the whole time. He shot 6 shots, switched mags and fired the last 3, all in like 3 or 4 seconds. :shock: It was so awesome. I was mesmerized.

Well, I know this got lengthy. I'm sorry about that. I hope I didn't forget anything, and that it makes sense to everyone. I'm not the best typist. I sometimes feel like my brain gets ahead of my fingers. I'm definitely practicing this whole new concept at the range from now on. And the best part: It's perfect for slow controlled shooting, too! Face it: if it works for rapid fire, the same stance/grip/etc will work in a slower, more controlled environment. I'm already imagining my groupings getting tighter and (hopefully) more centered.

I hope I explained it properly. I'll take pictures when I'm at the range next, but I'm not sure when that will be. Have fun, keep safe, and happy shooting! Let me know if this works for you, ok?

{Edit} I just read the above post after posting this one. I think it might use some of Ayoob's concepts. It's definitely a more aggressive or strong stance.
 

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Start shooting USPSA. We pretty much developed all those techniques. Its a real fun sport and will develop many other skills like shooting while moving and hitting moving targets. That Army guy had a mastery of teaching and understanding skills,application and technique much better than the better shooters even in USPSA.

I can draw on a target and put 6 A's or center mass in 1.7 seconds at 7 yards or 2.0 at 10 yards, on demand, cold. I am not the best shooter in IPSC but that kind of skill level is pretty common at higher classes.
 

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If you want to speed up the learning curve try the DVDs that Matt Burkett puts out. I have seen most of the pistol shooting videos, and they are full of info. If you are a fairly new shooter start with the first one and go from there. I think he is up to about 7 or 8 now, and they cover IPSC, IDPA, AR15s, and the new one is "How To Practice". They aren't real cheep, but they are worth it.
Matt stayed an extra day after the Area 3 match we had here a couple of years ago, and did a one day class for some of the ROs from the match, and I think everyone learned something. So even if you think know every thing you should still check them out. www.mattburkett.com
 

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I shoot IDPA and 3 gun and am also Filipino Martial Arts instructor. I have adopted footwork drills used in knife and stick fighting to firearms. This is primarily to teach my advanced students carryover footwork techniques that they learned in Arnis. First of all...we don't have any set 'stances" in Arnis as there are in Karate or other Traditional MAs. Our footwork is a transitional phase of combat, we learn to hit and cut on the move. This is why IDPA or IPSC training is so valuable, your on the move.

Iwould like to share with you one of our drills. Some people call it replacement step or triangle stepping or Male triangle (usually done with stick and knife). This is good practice especially if your limited to an indoor range and can't do alot of movement. Your basically staying in the same position but adjusting your feet for proper body alignment and triangulation. What this does is move your lower body, allowing your upper body to move like a turrent to remain relatively still. Start with 3 targets. For a left hander - Basically the drill starts as a modified weaver to hit target 1 on the left side, shift to isoceles to engage center target, then back to weaver (reverse) to engage right facing target. Then reverse. Try to time discharge with your step. Start out slow and smooth until you get the timing down. If you get it, you should be able to fire off 3 quick shots in one movement. Keep your balance centered over your feet and stay level. When done properly you should feel your upper body sweep a radial without moving your arms. Sorry for all you right handed people, I've had to adjust to right-handed world so if you want to give it a try just reverse it).

I'm no firearms expert, but works really good for me and my students since the footwork is engrained in us already. If you guys are interested, I can post some other Arnis footwork variations of this drill, like the shuffle step, pivoting, etc. If you would like to see this basic footwork in action using a stick go to http://www.fcamelbourne.com/ and click on the movie on the right and see if you can notice how the stepping pattern angles the body.



thanks

Andy
 

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I just got done reading a couple old, but still very good books talking about stances. If you've ever heard of Massad Ayoob, if not, you should.

The first book I highly recomend is "Stress Fire" he talks about the most common stances ie. Weaver stance, Chapman position, Isolceles stances. it is a very good book, but it is kind of advance but if you know the basics of shooting and gun handling you should be fine.

Second book "Tactical Pistol Shooting: Your Guide to Tactics That Work" Book by Erik Lawrence.
very good book, talks more on drawing, reholstering, shooting weak hand shooting wounded basically shooting weak hand, and reloading both two handed and one handed.
it was a cool book to read, has some stances and different shooting positions.

But if you want to learn stances and good techiques find books by Massad Ayoob, Frank James, Kevin Michalowski. just to name a couple.

Most of Ayoob's books are old enough to find in your local library.
hopefully i've been some type of help.

Rob
 
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