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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
I thought it was time we engaged a life-size target so I picked one and used an online tool called the Rasterbator to enlarge it.
Some assembly required.

This dude is in your house and he doesn't want your stuff, he wants you and your family to die. He has already started chanting "Aloha Snack-bar" so you don't have much time. Take him out before he takes you out.

As with the previous challenge, work on speed with accuracy. If you've paid for the G-sight shot timer, this might be a good challenge to try it out. How fast can you draw and get an accurate shot off?
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Hi @Obscura,

Hey! Thanks for splitting this file into printable pages. I'm taking a copy with me for some live fire practice. Fun stuff!

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Discussion Starter · #3 · (Edited)
Today's session. Wow, after months of shooting small targets, this one is like cheating.

Warmup:
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Next I tried the shot timer. It adds some stress that makes it way harder. The first few sets were a complete disaster. I've practiced drawing from my holster many times, but never with a timer. At first, I was trying to go too fast and not being able to find the dot. When I slowed down, things actually sped up.

I had the timer set to measure and time one shot and then give time to reload and re-holster before the next beep. Six shots per set. I'll post the group and the fastest shot from the last two sets.
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I don't remember how much the shot timer upgrade was, it wasn't much, worth every penny. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
More sessions today.

Warmup: The flyer happened when I was searching for the dot and pulled the trigger to see where it was. Bad idea.
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Best session/shot
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Good times!
 

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Hi @Obscura,


I wasn'tt able to use this target at the range yesterday. Oops. But I'll get it put together to have some practice at home.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 

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Discussion Starter · #6 ·
Hi @Obscura,
I wasn'tt able to use this target at the range yesterday. Oops.
Ranges say they don't let you bring your own targets for insurance reasons, but I suspect it's because they like selling you their targets. My favorite range lets you bring your own steel targets. :)
 

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Hi,

Ranges say they don't let you bring your own targets for insurance reasons, but I suspect it's because they like selling you their targets. My favorite range lets you bring your own steel targets. :)
It wasn't that. I just wasn't prepared. I didn't take the time to tape it all together and make it pretty so that we could put holes in it. I'll write up last week's range visit soon. We had a very productive time. Maybe tonight I'll hang it up in my front room for some laser practice.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Hi Mr. @Obscura,

This evening I carefully trimmed and taped together the target you so thoughtfully prepared for us. Thanks! It's actually great timing. This Friday I'm going to the range for my CCW qualification. You are correct in that shooting a life sized target feels a little like cheating. But I figure it's good practice for my qual. I'm qualifying with my XD9 and CW9 so that's what I practiced with, from seven yards in my front room.





These are the first four "magazines" from my XD9, ten center mass, ten head. Note: The time gaps you see may be because I was watching TV with Mrs. BassCliff and shooting on the commercial breaks. :D





Here are the first four "magazines" from my CW8, same routine. (One real flyer! Drat!)





Then I practiced a few more rounds with the XD9 until I was more consistent.



Then a little more practice with the CW9.



Then back to the XD9 just to make sure.



With the CW9, five on center, five on head.



To finish up, the same routine with the XD9.



OK. I think I'll be ready for my CCW range qualification. It requires ten shots anywhere in the upper chest area on a full size target from five yards, with a magazine change after five shots. (There is a LOT of emphasis on safety rather than marksmanship.) I'm going to qualify with both pistols in order to carry either one. I'll get in a couple more practice sessions before Friday. Wish me luck. Thanks for the target!



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 

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Hi,

Tonight I bought the shot timer for my G-Sight app. It's a fun training tool. Tonight I was drawing from concealed AIWB from 7 yards, just one shot as fast as I could be accurate. Here are some of my better efforts.







Then a backed up to ten yards (well, 29 feet) and put 10 on center.



Ten on center, same distance with the CW9.



Then one more magazine with the XD9.



It was not a long practice session this evening. I was mostly learning how to use the shot timer function. I think I've got it figured out. ;)

More fun to come! Thank you Mr. @Obscura!


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
My daughter's boyfriend has been training with me. He doesn't have much experience with pistols. We were drawing from an outside the waistband holster. The first time we used the shot timer, his times were in 8-10 second range.

After two more sessions...
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:oops: The kid is a natural.
 

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Hi Mr. @Obscura,

Tonight was a two-phase practice session. I was getting used to my new holster (I actually practiced a bit with all of them, the Relentless Tactical Defender leather AIWB, Alien Gear Cloak OWB hybrid, and Concealment Express AIWB) but I also wanted to start training on a B-8 target like Mr. @TSiWRX suggested. These are the first four magazines, cold, from ten yards (meh, ~29 feet), un-timed, with my XD9.





This is just one of the better efforts from further practice.



Then I switched to the Kahr CW9 for a few magazines. Oh boy, do I need more practice with this pistol. These are just a few of the better efforts, most were way below average. I think I need more light to make the fiber optic glow a little brighter. Old eyes, you know.





Then I practiced with our suicide bomber from ten yards, XD9, un-timed.



Here are a few of my better efforts, timed, 10 yards, drawing the XD9 from concealed with my new kydex AIWB.







I put on my OWB hybrid at 4 o'clock to practice drawing from concealed. I'm quite a bit slower but got a little faster with some practice.



Then I moved up to seven yards for more timed practice with the AIWB kydex. I guess it was a little quicker from closer up.





Remind me never to pick a gunfight with your daughter's boyfriend, Mr. @Obscura. At least not until after I've had a lot more practice. (Just kidding! I'm a kidder!) Take care.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Hi,

^ AAAAAAAhhhhhhh, the dreaded sharing error! :ROFLMAO:
Blast! I guess I'm not as much of a geek as I thought. :p

Should work now. It was late. I was in a hurry. My hair hurt.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Discussion Starter · #14 ·
Remind me never to pick a gunfight with your daughter's boyfriend, Mr. @Obscura. At least not until after I've had a lot more practice.
Yeah, when I saw those times I couldn't believe it. She is an expert marksman too so together they'll be a force to be reckoned with. If he breaks her heart and becomes a crazed stalker I've got problems.

I had another session and my times were slower. I'm confident they'll improve with more reps.
 

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Tonight was a two-phase practice session. I was getting used to my new holster (I actually practiced a bit with all of them, the Relentless Tactical Defender leather AIWB, Alien Gear Cloak OWB hybrid, and Concealment Express AIWB) but I also wanted to start training on a B-8 target like Mr. @TSiWRX suggested. These are the first four magazines, cold, from ten yards (meh, ~29 feet), un-timed, with my XD9.
Looking good! :)

Then I switched to the Kahr CW9 for a few magazines. Oh boy, do I need more practice with this pistol.
The Kahr's trigger path is pretty unique among striker-fired pistols. It's been around for a while and it's commonly accepted among shooters as being really smooth and is well-liked. However, it does take dedicated practice to "co-master" with the more typical trigger paths of modern striker-fires. Remember, to master two "guns" isn't about doing incremental work on the second one: it's literally the need to put in twice as much work.

I'm an OK shot with mine (PM9), but I've seen some really good shooters do some really rather amazing things with thus little pistol.

Here are a few of my better efforts, timed, 10 yards, drawing the XD9 from concealed with my new kydex AIWB.

<snip>

I put on my OWB hybrid at 4 o'clock to practice drawing from concealed. I'm quite a bit slower but got a little faster with some practice.

<snip>

Then I moved up to seven yards for more timed practice with the AIWB kydex. I guess it was a little quicker from closer up.
Generally speaking, smoothness and efficiency from the draw is what makes it fast.

No, this isn't to parrot the old adage of '"Slow is Smooth; Smooth is Fast." Rather, it is to suggest that frenetic/frantic action and "snatching the gun from the holster and throwing it out there" is actually very counterproductive. Frantic actions at the beginning of the draw-stroke almost always betray underlying skills deficits and a lack of consistency and confidence in the draw. Actions too forceful towards the completion of the presentation forces compensation for inertia (i.e. overswing, the need to hunt for sight-package/"find the dot," etc).

To build efficiency and consistency, start SLOOOOOOOOOOOW, and allow those motor pathways to really burn-in, to become smooth.

One method is to build that pathway is to start at the end: go backwards.

From full-presentation (with perfect sight-package and trigger broken but not reset), maintain that sight-package as long as possible while bringing the gun back towards high-compressed ready (your "meet and greet" spot as you transition from single-handed presentation from the draw to the two-handed extension/push-out, first releasing the rear sights and then the front [note that going "forward/from the holster" from an actual draw, this is where you would pick up the sights - slowly come off the trigger until the sight-picture has broken, and take note that this is where, going from the draw, you should start prepping the trigger]). Once you've completely burned-in this section of your presentation, continue tracking backwards to earlier portions of your draw-stroke, coming fully off the trigger when your muzzle is no longer downrange (for me, this is where I transition between retention and the vertical portion of the draw stroke). Build this all the way back to the holster, making sure that each sector is absolutely perfect. Rinse-and-repeat to burn-in.

Now, pull up that shot timer and start to build forward. [No, this isn't a Time Pincer! :geek: 🤪 ]

842342


Set a ridiculously long par time for you to complete a single "perfect draw-to-first-shot" full-presentation rep.

You can benchmark this by doing a max-effort draw-to-single-shot rep, where the object of the game is a perfect draw stroke (you did perfect it, with all that "Inverted" practice from before, right? ;) ) with a perfect bulls-eye hit at the end.

Tack on 2 or even 3 seconds to that time and set it as your par.

Now, trigger the shot-timer and execute that perfect draw and presentation - remember to prep the trigger as soon as your muzzle is pointed down-range.....and I want you to both come to full-extension AND at that simultaneous moment break the shot, all at precisely the moment when you reach par time (and you'd better be perfectly on-target then, too!).

I want you to execute ten (10) PERFECT reps of this (including that perfect dry-fire at the end) - and any time you screw up, start counting the set over again from the beginning. Yes, this is rough. VERY rough.

Shave off a half-second for every perfect set.

Once you drop below three seconds, shave off a .25 per perfect set. Adjust this increment accordingly, as your par time decreases.

The idea here is that you progressively burn-in this perfect pathway (consistency): everything from authoritative clearing of the cover garment and establishment of a dominant grip to prepping the trigger as soon as you've come to the threat-plane to a perfect meet-up with as-early-as-possible acquisition of your sight package to a smooth press-out to full-extension to the shot breaking precisely at the time you've reached full-extension. All at what should seem to be barely perceptible increments of speed (efficiency).

Watch a World-Champion F1 driver at the wheel or a top surgeon practicing his craft: they make it seem like there's all the time in the world because their movements are as efficient as can be.

Your draw should be, too. ;)
 

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Hi,

Looking good! :)



The Kahr's trigger path is pretty unique among striker-fired pistols. It's been around for a while and it's commonly accepted among shooters as being really smooth and is well-liked. However, it does take dedicated practice to "co-master" with the more typical trigger paths of modern striker-fires. Remember, to master two "guns" isn't about doing incremental work on the second one: it's literally the need to put in twice as much work.

I'm an OK shot with mine (PM9), but I've seen some really good shooters do some really rather amazing things with thus little pistol.



Generally speaking, smoothness and efficiency from the draw is what makes it fast.

No, this isn't to parrot the old adage of '"Slow is Smooth; Smooth is Fast." Rather, it is to suggest that frenetic/frantic action and "snatching the gun from the holster and throwing it out there" is actually very counterproductive. Frantic actions at the beginning of the draw-stroke almost always betray underlying skills deficits and a lack of consistency and confidence in the draw. Actions too forceful towards the completion of the presentation forces compensation for inertia (i.e. overswing, the need to hunt for sight-package/"find the dot," etc).

To build efficiency and consistency, start SLOOOOOOOOOOOW, and allow those motor pathways to really burn-in, to become smooth.

One method is to build that pathway is to start at the end: go backwards.

From full-presentation (with perfect sight-package and trigger broken but not reset). Maintain that sight-package as long as possible while bringing the gun back towards high-compressed ready (your "meet and greet" spot as you transition from single-handed presentation from the draw to the two-handed extension/push-out, first releasing the rear sights and then the front [note that this is in the "forward/from the holster" draw, where you would pick up the sights - slowly come off the trigger until the sight-picture has broken, and take note that this is where, going from the draw, you should start prepping the trigger]). Once you've completely burned-in this section of your presentation, continue tracking backwards to earlier portions of your draw-stroke, coming fully off the trigger when your muzzle is no longer downrange. Build this all the way back to the holster, making sure that each sector is absolutely perfect. Rinse-and-repeat to burn-in.

Now, pull up that shot timer and start to build forward. [No, this isn't a Time Pincer! :geek: 🤪 ]

View attachment 842342

Set a ridiculously long par time for you to complete a single "perfect draw-to-first-shot" full-presentation rep.

You can benchmark this by doing a max-effort draw-to-single-shot rep, where the object of the game is a perfect draw stroke (you did perfect it, with all that "Inverted" practice from before, right? ;) ) with a perfect bulls-eye hit at the end.

Tack on 2 or even 3 seconds to that time and set it as your par.

Now, trigger the shot-timer and execute that perfect draw and presentation - remember to prep the trigger as soon as your muzzle is pointed down-range.....and I want you to both come to full-extension AND at that simultaneous moment break the shot, all at precisely the moment when you reach par time (and you'd better be perfectly on-target then, too!).

I want you to execute ten (10) PERFECT reps of this (including that perfect dry-fire at the end) - and any time you screw up, start counting the set over again from the beginning. Yes, this is rough. VERY rough.

Shave off a half-second for every perfect set.

Once you drop below three seconds, shave off a .25 per perfect set. Adjust this increment accordingly, as your par time decreases.

The idea here is that you progressively burn-in this perfect pathway (consistency): everything from authoritative clearing of the cover garment and establishment of a dominant grip to prepping the trigger as soon as you've come to the threat-plane to a perfect meet-up with as-early-as-possible acquisition of your sight package to a smooth press-out to full-extension to the shot breaking precisely at the time you've reached full-extension. All at what should seem to be barely perceptible increments of speed (efficiency).

Watch a World-Champion F1 driver at the wheel or a top surgeon practicing his craft: they make it seem like there's all the time in the world because their movements are as efficient as can be.

Your draw should be, too. ;)
Excellent! Another training session in a single post. :)

I do practice the draw mechanics slowly, on their own, without dry fire. But I have not broken it down into sections like this, or practiced backwards. These are great exercises that I will incorporate into my practice sessions. I'll be able to do these without all the clicking, racking, and beeping noises I make when using the laser system. I will silently build muscle memory. Mrs. BassCliff will appreciate that. :D

I'm assuming that I should be able to draw from concealed without taking eyes off the target. In the last couple of motions before "BANG!" (trigger prep and punch-out), am I bringing my sights into my line of vision, picking up the front sight first, then aligning the rear sights so POA and POI are (hopefully) the same? Thanks for letting me pick your brain.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Mechanically, for me it's easier to first pick up the front sight: using the rears to refine the sight package if I end up needing that refinement.

That said, over the last two years, I've adopted Joe Weyer's seemingly wacky drawstroke (Concealed Carry Corner: Refining the Draw Stroke -), and this methodology/technique has the rear sights in soft focus as soon as the gun comes forward from rentention . [ For "window gun" shooters, this technique has the advantage of a very consistent reference point to pick up the dot. ]

If you favor a slightly muzzle-up presentation as many shooters do, yes, that front sight is a very common reference point.

But different strokes for different folks....it's up to the individual to find what works best for them as well as what makes the most sense based on their unique lifestyles.
 

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Hi,

Mechanically, for me it's easier to first pick up the front sight: using the rears to refine the sight package if I end up needing that refinement.

That said, over the last two years, I've adopted Joe Weyer's seemingly wacky drawstroke (Concealed Carry Corner: Refining the Draw Stroke -), and this methodology/technique has the rear sights in soft focus as soon as the gun comes forward from rentention . [ For "window gun" shooters, this technique has the advantage of a very consistent reference point to pick up the dot. ]

If you favor a slightly muzzle-up presentation as many shooters do, yes, that front sight is a very common reference point.

But different strokes for different folks....it's up to the individual to find what works best for them as well as what makes the most sense based on their unique lifestyles.
You know, the "elbows up" technique seems to make a lot of sense especially with that retention position and keeping the muzzle parallel to the ground during the process.

But some of those comments, YEEEOUCH!

"...the most cringe-worthy Tactitard photos..."

"...perform an armed reenactment of the 80s era Chicken Dance, before getting the gun into action..."

"...Any injury or weakness in the arms, neck, hand or shoulder, and you're no longer able to perform as you practice..." (Hence practicing different scenarios, having situational awareness, etc.)

And so on. I thought the one comment about the "meet up" being chest level rather than chin level made sense. That way you don't have to have your elbows up so high to keep the muzzle parallel to the ground and pointing at the target. I do plan to practice a modified version of this technique. I'm getting old and I'm not quite as flexible as I used to be. ;) Plus it's not really applicable in all situations.

Someone mentioned the good old fashioned Col. Jeff Cooper technique. I'll have to familiarize myself with that too. I'm going to have all kinds of fun! I've learned that "one size does not fit all". I'm going to collect all this wisdom you are sharing into one location. That will make it easier to refer back to it. I 'preciate ya!

(I guess you can tell it's a slow day at work today. I'm spending way too much time on this forum.) :LOL:

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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😬 (y)

The thing with techniques is that its doesn't often translate - until one takes the class or otherwise gains more intimate knowledge of the "whys," the "hows" may not always make sense, and even if there's follow-up, it's not always guaranteed that the full idea is conveyed.

Look at this old thread:


In post #3, one member brought up Robert Vogel's video. So with that video, you'd imagine that it's all about "grip," right? In class, though, as I go into later in that thread in post #5, what he instead emphasized was just how much athleticism is needed - not only about the grip technique, but how to actually achieve what he demonstrated.

Extrapolate that to the current topic of what was taught by Joe Weyer....

For example, one comment centered on the fact that there was no shot timer in any of the pictures. It was totally missed by that reader that everything that counted was filmed in ultra-slow-motion in Coaches' Eye and analyzed/critiqued by everyone in class (talk about embarrassing and humbling :p). Meanwhile, all of the dry-fire work? It was all done to par times on a shot-timer.

"Small groups from retention?" Again, out-of-context/insufficient context from presenter/author. In class, this translated to Weyer's research into police shootings and his observations that the shots that missed the threat were often found directly either in the foreground or background, and his theory was that this was due to the "timing" of the shots, combined with problems found in the draw stroke. Towards the former, the lack of proper retention shooting techniques causes the shots to be buried into the foreground. As a by-product of achieving speed from draw to retention (with the overarching goal of "getting an effective shot on-target first," as the data shows that the first person to effect such a shot is favored to be the victor of the gunfight), what we see downrange manifests as a tighter group at closer distances, which actually translates into an increased capability to both engage at-distance (because "The 21-ft. Rule" really isn't, in the context of an actual violent confrontation; have someone perform the canonical Tueller Drill with you, and instead of just rushing past you at the end, have them actually "come at you" with forward momentum/inertia from their initial drive...the question that you will seek to answer in that moment would be whether it would be even possible to come to full extension, with the secondary question being at what distance should you be prepared to engage from, from-retention) as well as during dynamic movement (as a part of the currently favored "thumb-pectoral index" as taught by leading ECQC/integrated combatives schools/instructors).

Injuries? Well, that's pretty much the same for any draw, no? ;) Isn't that the very reason that yet other classes specifically address "wounded/injured" skills/techniques for both drawing and other critical weapons-manipulations? (And those same classes, when pics are posted online, are dissected by the same folks and yet other complaints raised. 🤪)

The "chicken dance?" Well, the last time I looked, proper execution of the SUL position (as an actual muzzle aversion technique, not as a fancy tactical thing to do) looks pretty contorted, too. And let's not even get into the "Groucho Walk" for shooting while on the move (which itself is often misunderstood, until someone goes through a couple runs of force-on-force).... 😬

The lack of context and the inability to discuss nuances is often a problem...which is oftentimes why my posts are word-walls. TL:DNR, indeed!

But even with full discussion of the whys behind the hows, there's still both good and bad - and there's also physical limitations of both time/place (not to mention the physical limitations of the shooter) which may prevent proper execution of this particular form of drawing and presenting the concealed pistol.

It's never "The Way." Just "a way." ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #20 ·
I've done some practicing today without the G-sight setup being turned on. Slowly draw, aim, fire, charge, holster, repeat.
 
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