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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Another member and I were recently discussing the state of affairs in our nation and the world right now. We are of like mind in that we see much trouble on the horizon, and are both of the 'prepper' mindset.


There is one area in which we differ greatly, our understanding of the causes of the situation. I see the majority of the symptoms of our current situation as the direct & indirect results of a deliberate scheme by "the powers that shouldn't be". Where he buys into the government's explanation of the symptoms as the result of incompetence and complacency in our government.



I will use 9/11 as the most obvious example with which to illustrate my point. I am an outspoken 9/11 truther (I don't believe the government's own conspiracy theory explaining what happened), where he believes the government's explanation that they were simply too incompetent to prevent the event from happening.



The other forum member asked me why the truth matters if we've both come to the same conclusion about our state of affairs (namely - that the government is evil & corrupt & that we need a revolution).


I’ve thought about it quite a bit and I guess I’ve come to the conclusion that it is important to know our enemy if we want to have any chance of defeating it. If you believe that the problem was created by incompetence and complacency, than I believe you have bought into their deceptive narrative and are still sympathetic to them as imperfect human beings doing the best they can to make things better.


However, once you have done enough research into things like 9/11, it becomes quite obvious that the powers that shouldn't be are actively trying to enslave the people, and you start to realize they are the enemy. This makes a huge difference in how we approach solving the problem.


Let me use a simple analogy...we're all on a ship together, after a while we start to notice that the ship is taking on water, so we start scooping it out and looking for leaks. As we find the leaks, we start patching the leaks as best we can. But, as the leaks get patched, we continually find more leaks, and more...eventually, we start to realize that the boat must be abandoned and that we need a new boat. Now, obviously, most of the passengers are still dancing and drinking and completely oblivious to the water leaking into the hull (the sheeple). But among the people who are aware of the problem, there is a further divide, those who are simply seeing the problem, and those digging a bit deeper and investigating the causes (the "truthers"). This smaller group starts to realize that the ship has been sabotaged and that it is actually the crew (directed by the captain working for the shipping company) who are making the holes. These truthers try to convince the rest of the passengers (oblivious sheeple and the aware individuals alike) of the conspiracy to sink the ship...but immediately are labeled as crazy and written off. Eventually, the ship does sink...but not to worry, only 1/2 of the passengers die (including the truthers who are eventually locked up in the lower decks for spreading fear and lies). The ship company rescues the other 50% of the passengers in a heroic rescue and the captain is promoted and handed a brand new (bigger/better) ship which is paid for via insurance fraud after lies are seeded into the media that a mysterious sea monster was causing the holes.


OK, so it's a pretty underdeveloped analogy which I just pulled from my rear, but I think it does an adequate job of looking at our current situation. If 9/11 was an inside job, and if the current economic collapse is engineered from within, and if the NWO (New World Order) is a real threat to freedom worldwide...than we NEED to recognize it as such, and we need to know our enemy (obviously, the US government & the corporations puppeteering it).


I'm an Iraqi War Vet (please do not thank me for my "service", I'm quite ashamed of it now)...my awakening began with my own personal investigation into 9/11 truth in 2012. I thought it was all a bunch of hooey and set out to debunk the crazy conspiracies for my own peace of mind. However, I was met with very intelligent, well researched, well documented justification for questioning the government's narrative. If you have not looked into 9/11 truth for yourself, don't take my word for it...go do your own homework (carefully avoiding the "holographic airplane", "mini-nuke", "space laser", etc... DISINFORMATION campaigns) and you too will form a better understanding of how the government used this event as a "false-flag".



Going back to my analogy, if the truthers on the ship were successful in deploying their message to the people, than the crew would have been locked up...the leaks would have stopped appearing, the existing leaks would have been patched up and the people would have taken the shipping company to court for justice.


Knowing your enemy is SO important. We cannot wait for bad things to happen, so that the enemy can devise a "solution". This always gives them the upper hand and allows them more and more control & power within our society.


The so called "truthers" like me see 9/11 as a "false-flag" which has been used in this way. A way for the government to seize more control over the people, to tear away our natural rights, and implement more tyranny in the USA, to further our economic & foreign policy agenda, and to create fear to rally support for itself.



This really is an information-war, we need to know the truth if we want to come up with real solutions to the problem.
 

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The enemy I fear it the "our" government and the gestapo that works for the government . They are the greatest risk to life and liberty. Most people are mindless non thinkers no matter their education and follow the flock without thought.Seems there are lots of false flag events that herd the sheep .
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
I was hoping for more participation. Does anyone disagree? I don't desire for this to devolve into a discussion about the truth behind certain events...although its hard to avoid. But, is knowing the truth important? Is it possible to understand the depth of the governments corruption, if we buy their narrative about every event that comes along (1993 WTC bombing, Waco Texas, Oklahoma City bombing, 9/11, Boston Bombing, etc... etc... etc...). If they are liying about these events, would you even recognize it. Where do you get your information? If you get it from the MSM, then you're simply listening to the government mouthpieces who spew nothing but propaganda.

Thoughts?
 

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Care to share some of the evidence you found

I too am going to be locked below decks with you...I have found my own evidence...and by piecing the puzzle together and stepping back to see the big picture.

I for one believe this goes much deeper than just "our" government however...

And if anyone says "our government would never do that to us" merely needs to start with "Operation Northwoods" that will open the cover on the book to the conspiracy that has been growing for over 1/2 a century globally
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Actually, the Operation Northwoods document is an excellent example of evidence that is so profound, and so revealing that I would think it was a perfect artifact to show someone who believes the government would never be behind something like 9/11. The problem is that nobody seems capable of reading anymore, unless the message is 140 characters or less. :rolleyes:
 

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I was hoping for more participation.

Thoughts?
My guess is that the lack of participation thus far indicates a lack of buyers. I am extremely skeptical of all grand conspiracy theories. Not trying to be overly simple here, but it seems to me that even pulling off a surprise party with more than a dozen guests rarely works. But I am supposed to believe, for example, that I was the only one not involved in the Kennedy assassination.
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
My guess is that the lack of participation thus far indicates a lack of buyers. I am extremely skeptical of all grand conspiracy theories. Not trying to be overly simple here, but it seems to me that even pulling off a surprise party with more than a dozen guests rarely works. But I am supposed to believe, for example, that I was the only one not involved in the Kennedy assassination.
That's what I thought as well, before I started looking into it myself. I wonder if these ideas you have prevent you from looking at the evidence...or have you honestly considered the evidence and come to the conclusion that the government's narrative seems the most plausible? Also, consider the evidence you have looked at, and the source of that information.

Consider this video for a moment, it's only 15 minutes, and it only covers a VERY limited scope of the evidence...but if you accept the government's narrative on 9/11. Then how do YOU debunk the information contained herein?

youtube v=T3SYDjvCZSw
 

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I'm skeptical of most conspiracy theories, but honestly most of the ones I've seen much of are quite possibly the ones you yourself identified as 'wrong', and they're presented by whacko loonies.

The other reason is that I've worked with and for many of the government agencies at one point, and honestly what I've seen is a bureaucracy that is so incompetent it couldn't pull of surprising anyone. Honestly in committees it would take them 6 months to define how to tie your shoes. It's a bunch of good smart people buried in a machine.

If there were people who were able to pull the strings on something so grand, it's a very small number of people in the right place…just don't see it from my experience.

Also, I would think those in power or influence wouldn't have much reason to destroy what we have going…they would be the ones with the most to lose. Think North Korea.

And, I just don't really trust ANY source of information right now...
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
And if anyone says "our government would never do that to us" merely needs to start with "Operation Northwoods" that will open the cover on the book to the conspiracy that has been growing for over 1/2 a century globally
...it seems to me that even pulling off a surprise party with more than a dozen guests rarely works...
...If there were people who were able to pull the strings on something so grand, it's a very small number of people in the right place…just don't see it from my experience...
@unclejed & born4golf2
Have you both looked at the document AwPunch linked to? It is an excellent read. It was a memo drafted by the joint chiefs to JFK as possible solution to the problem of a lack of justification to invade Cuba. It was declassified recently...some of the suggestions provided echo eerily in light of 9/11.
 

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Its bigger than the talking heads. Follow the money trail and you'll find the enemy. Lets begin to really probe how a lowly senator or congressman/woman can become a millionaire during his/her term.

Who's pulling the legislative strings? Follow the money.
 

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I think that our government has been corrupted for decades upon decades...It's all working towards a NWO, as you point out - all IMHO...too many things point that way.

As far as 9/11, I do believe it was an inside job, and $$, as usual, were the reasons. I've seen and read much on the topic and it all points to that. Just the fact that over $2 TRILLION electronically disappeared as it started, plus all the reports about the plane hitting the towers BEFORE the planes hit the towers, and the fact that jet fuel can't melt iron, like thermite can, and they removed all the evidence before it could be examined, and on and on...

however, it's just 1 of many things that the government has been doing over the decades to gain more power, control, and of course, the Almighty $$$$$$$

The elite $$$ have been running this country (into the ground) for decades - Federal Reserve anyone??

If I can dig up the reams of documents, videos, etc. I've read about 9/11, I'll post them. This was for my sake, and I didn't (don't feel I do) need to prove it to anyone else.

Why do you think the moral values of the country have been declining for so long? Break the country/people from their core.

Police State (country) anyone?? Shoot first, ask questions later? Yup, it's just an Opinion piece: Just Shoot: The Mindset Responsible For Turning Search Warrants Into Death Warrants, And SWAT Teams Into Death Squads

Destroy us from within...so far, I think it's working!! Morally bankrupt society with the sheeple content from Bread and Circus...oh, Internet, plugged in, believing mass mainstream media.

We can't think for ourselves any longer...

OK, remove tin foil hat...back to work. put on flame suit :mrgreen:
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Its bigger than the talking heads. Follow the money trail and you'll find the enemy. Lets begin to really probe how a lowly senator or congressman/woman can become a millionaire during his/her term.

Who's pulling the legislative strings? Follow the money.
I think that our government has been corrupted for decades upon decades...It's all working towards a NWO, as you point out - all IMHO...too many things point that way.
+1 to both of you...I'm glad there are others around these parts being honest with the situation and recognizing the truth of these events. But neither of you answered my questions...

1) Do you think it is possible for someone to effectively combat the government if they do not understand the depth of evil working in/behind it?
To state it another way: Is it possible for "patriots" who believe the governments lies to defeat/replace/renew said government? Or are they too easily manipulated and therefore an ineffective force for the revolution?

I often here a lot of alternative press expressing a lot of optimism about more of the population "waking up", and that we will win this info-war. However, Many people are only waking up to the current lies and manipulation, but are missing the bigger picture. I worry that unless we understand the bigger picture, our force for revolution will be un-prepared for the manipulation we are sure to face.

Take for instance this most recent Las Vegas shooting which has immediately been pinned (by CNN) on the "conspiracy theorist crowd"...ie - people like me. (I'd post links, but I'm not allowed yet).

If you were not ready for this demonetization (I've been expecting it for years), you could easily be manipulated to believe this outrageous speculation & blatant propaganda.
 

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If you were not ready for this demonetization (I've been expecting it for years), you could easily be manipulated to believe this outrageous speculation & blatant propaganda.
Demonetization or Demonization?

But as long as you have a membership card it's all good.



I don't believe 9/11 was an inside job. I do think that we should keep looking critically at anything we are told. That's how we find the next lie.

To your original questions. Yes it is possible for any group to effectively combat another group without understanding their motivations. It's more important that they understand their own motivations and objectives.
 

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Soilent green is people!!!!!!!! Sorry, I had to! :)
 

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actually, the operation northwoods document is an excellent example of evidence that is so profound, and so revealing that i would think it was a perfect artifact to show someone who believes the government would never be behind something like 9/11. The problem is that nobody seems capable of reading anymore, unless the message is 140 characters or less. :rolleyes:
tl;dr :p

Let see...operation northwoods (that he didn't sign off on) and this speech


And not too long after


9/11 an inside job...at the very least..."let it happen" because they needed a crisis

After all...it's not like they didn't know how to poke the Japanese to force aggression

http://whatreallyhappened.com/WRHARTICLES/McCollum/index.html

It's not like a war isn't a GREAT way to bolster a nations finances and correct a recession in a real quick way? However with that said they needed a reason to "Wake the sleeping giant" because those nations of the Axis if left unchecked and would have more or less laid waste to the entire UK and then where would we have been...they needed to be stopped but instead of coming out and saying we needed to stop them...America didn't want to get involved...till we got our nose bloodied

Sure...it could have been said it was done for "a noble cause" but can we say the same for the last few decades of leaders?
 

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That's what I thought as well, before I started looking into it myself. I wonder if these ideas you have prevent you from looking at the evidence...or have you honestly considered the evidence and come to the conclusion that the government's narrative seems the most plausible? Also, consider the evidence you have looked at, and the source of that information.

Consider this video for a moment, it's only 15 minutes, and it only covers a VERY limited scope of the evidence...but if you accept the government's narrative on 9/11. Then how do YOU debunk the information contained herein?

youtube v=T3SYDjvCZSw
I saw a good documentary, sorry I don't remember what it was called, and it poked giant holes in all the conspiracy "proof". So to answer your question, yes I looked into the proof you are putting forth and in my opinion it is hogwash. JMO and not any disrespect intended. I never take the governments word as truth anymore either.


One more thing, you being ashamed of your service doesn't sit well with me. I don't expect that to necessarily matter to you, but that statement alone puts my hackles up and suspicions on full alert. I know a lot of good veterans from that conflict including one with no legs as a result. He isn't ashamed.
 

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I'm skeptical of most conspiracy theories, but honestly most of the ones I've seen much of are quite possibly the ones you yourself identified as 'wrong', and they're presented by whacko loonies.

The other reason is that I've worked with and for many of the government agencies at one point, and honestly what I've seen is a bureaucracy that is so incompetent it couldn't pull of surprising anyone.
My buddy works for a Federal agency and he said it looks like a skit from Saturday Night Live. Incompetence running full tilt. We are not safe because many of those that are supposed to be guarding us are buffoons....not top secret conspiracy ninjas.
 

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Discussion Starter · #19 ·
I saw a good documentary, sorry I don't remember what it was called, and it poked giant holes in all the conspiracy "proof". So to answer your question, yes I looked into the proof you are putting forth and in my opinion it is hogwash. JMO and not any disrespect intended. I never take the governments word as truth anymore either.


One more thing, you being ashamed of your service doesn't sit well with me. I don't expect that to necessarily matter to you, but that statement alone puts my hackles up and suspicions on full alert. I know a lot of good veterans from that conflict including one with no legs as a result. He isn't ashamed.
So, how would you explain the molten metal in the WTC towers? Or the explosion heard by many witnesses (and captured on video recordings)? If they are hogwash evidence, you must have a reasonable explanation for them? Waiting to hear your explanations ;)

I am ashamed of my service because I was duped into that service with lies and deception. I believed GWB's lies about our reasons for going into Iraq. I was duped by the propaganda, and I am ashamed of my gullibility. It was not a just or honorable war, and I am ashamed of taking part in it. About a 1/2 million innocent Iraqi civilians blood is on our hands, and I took direct part in their execution...shame on all of us for allowing our leaders to get away with it! :(
 

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I would like to add, while I/we think there is some deep evil at work, there has to be tremendous evidence of such. Any video, audio or witness testimony would have to be vetted and presented properly.

Youtube vids and blog reports wont cut it.
 
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