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Does anyone know if our guys are using good stuff (Corbon, Hydrashok, etc) in Iraq or do they have to use the FMJ ball stuff?
 

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My guess is ball ammo. It goes all the way through making you bleed faster and after it passes through one person can do damage to a second person.
 

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I read (in SOF I think) that snipers are using hollow point ammo for ballistics reasons. Supposed to fly straighter or something. Of course, I personally have no proof. Can anyone back that up?
 

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According to the Geneva Convention, all armies must use ball ammo. According to the accords, no weapon shall cause unecessary damage to a soldier. Seems silly to me, considering the goal is usually to kill the person. Also, I read once that ball damage inflicts greater overall damage to the enemy force because they will have more wounded men to take care of and have to spend more money doing so...
 

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nocalkind said:
According to the Geneva Convention, all armies must use ball ammo. According to the accords, no weapon shall cause unecessary damage to a soldier. Seems silly to me, considering the goal is usually to kill the person. Also, I read once that ball damage inflicts greater overall damage to the enemy force because they will have more wounded men to take care of and have to spend more money doing so...
That's actually not part of the Geneva Convention, which deals primarily with the treatment of POWs. The Hague convention, which the US signed, does state that it is forbidden to use arms which cause unnecessary suffering. However JAG has approved certain types of hollow point ammo to be used.

Edit: GSH341, I looked it up and I believe you are referring to the Sierra Matchking 7.62 BTHP.
 

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I can't remember where I read it but I believe they are using ball ammo in iraq on conventional targets but anything classified as "Was on terror" doesn't fall under the same rules so they are allowing other stuff.
 

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1) The Hague Convention is what prohibits the use of expanding ammunition.
2) JAG has indeed approved the use of HP for certain units and op
3) The military STILL, via policy, generally prohibits the use of HP, and soldiers can get in trouble for having it.
4) The doctrine of "shoot to wound" has been debunked somewhat, and all I have heard from the military denies subscribing (or ever having subscribed) to such a doctrine officially.
5) The MK262 Mod 0 and 1, that is, the Sierra Matchking and Nosler OTHP have hollow tips as a result of the construction method of the bullet and (this is speculation) I think this is implicity understood as not being an "intentional" hollowpoint.
6) FMJ *may* cause more blood loss than HP, but HP, via expansion will cause greater tissue damage if it is placed correctly. An HP that penetrates enough to go through will probably cause more damage than an FMJ. I speculate that shoot-through is not as big an issue in military settings as it is in the civilian world.
 

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I recently read that they are using hollow point ammo in the 6.8's that are being used. 8)
 

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I don't know this for sure, but I think the 6.8 OTM is the same "story" as the Sierra Matchking and Nosler OTMs. Anyone know who makes the 6.8 bullets that have seen limited use?
 

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Figgy1682 said:
well my buddy did 2 tours in iraq and they use fmj cause the were not allowed to use hollow points
Hey didnt you guys get the memo ...... the one about our use of special tactical safety ammo(Corbon, Hydrashok, etc) ...... hint hint ..... that allows us to insure if we hit a BG the bullet stays in the BG and wont over penetrate thus meaning that thier is only one entrance hole to stitch up instead of an entrance and exit hole! This means that the insurgent medics wont have to stitch up as many holes which means that they can save more lives by helping more wounded soldiers will be able to work much faster with our use of this special tactical ammo.

:twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
 

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Some situations require special weapons, ammo or operators. I don't think you will see Federal's 68gr match ammo or the like issued to all troops, but I know some folks from Delta, Fast Company or one of the teams might have it.


Given the choice I think it's more humane to be killed instantly than suffer my wounds and die in a dusty floored hospital of infection, or bleeding, but that's me thinking logically, and we all know some political types can't do that.
 

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They use a variety of ammo, ball and JHP, in rifles, carbines, smgs, and pistols. The 5.56mm M193 type loads pictured above have not been std issue for years BTW, the current is M855 62g "ball" ammo, along w some 77g OTM ammo (open tip match means a JHP). OTM ammo is also used in 7.62 NATO.
 

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BrokenArrow said:
They use a variety of ammo, ball and JHP, in rifles, carbines, smgs, and pistols. The 5.56mm M193 type loads pictured above have not been std issue for years BTW, the current is M855 62g "ball" ammo, along w some 77g OTM ammo (open tip match means a JHP). OTM ammo is also used in 7.62 NATO.
Many reserve, national guard, and Air Force units are issued M193 that carry M16A1's because of barrel twist. The frontline troops that carry M16A2's and M4's use M855.


M855 second from left.

 

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I was active duty AF, had not been issued M193, or been anywhere it was, since 1994. Had no idea so many other folks were still using the old stuff. ;)

Actually, the old M193 load is probably better at stopping soft targets farther out than the M855. The only thing it's better at is penetrating hard stuff at long range, and that isn't needed as much as often. From an M4, the M193 is OK out to about 95m, the M855 stops fragging at about 50m.
 

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BrokenArrow said:
I was active duty AF, had not been issued M193, or been anywhere it was, since 1994. Had no idea so many other folks were still using the old stuff. ;)

Actually, the old M193 load is probably better at stopping soft targets farther out than the M855. The only thing it's better at is penetrating hard stuff at long range, and that isn't needed as much as often. From an M4, the M193 is OK out to about 95m, the M855 stops fragging at about 50m.
Thats a quote from Troy Tiscarnero, he authored http://www.ammo-oracle.com/

He wouldnt publish something he hadnt researched.
 

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We aren't disagreeing much here, if at all... the std issue has been M855 since the new 1/7 twist guns were std issue, which happened yrs ago, even in the USAF. A lot more people are now active w older guns that need the older ammo than when I was serving. Active duty people are running into a lot more activated reserve and Guard units w older stuff than ever before, or I ever did before I retired. And I hear ammo shortages caused a lot of 9mm and 5.56 to be bought and used from a foreign source, and some of that was M193 type ammo.

M855 and M193, both FMJ, are both being used in 5.56. Along w some JHP and OTM ammo in 9mm, 5.56mm, and 7.62mm in rifles, pistols, and smgs.
 
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