[El Whapo]

Hi, I'm new to this forum and to the XD series. I just recently bought an XD- Tactical.I recently took my Tactical to the range for the first time and it performed flawlessly with CCI blazer and Winchester,FMJ but when I used Frangible ammo it would jam every 2-3 rounds( of course this was after 100 rnds of CCI blazer). I bought the Frangible ammo due to I live in an Apartment complex and was concerned about over penetrattion through walls, but should I be concern with this type of ammo that keeps jamming on my Tactical or should I use something different for self defense that will not penetrate through walls ? Any info for any type of self defense ammo would be appreciated.

 

[Eric_Oh]

Well i would say test out different brands of frangible if thats what you really want to stick to. From my experience with frangible ammo, it leaves a lot of almost grainny residue that is more visible than normal target or hp rounds. It makes cleaning more of a pain as well.

However, if you're concerned with what to keep ur mag loaded at home for those "when the **** hits the fan" moments, why not some hollow points instead? Besides, to my knowledge frangibles wont' entirely break down until they hit a fairly hard surface. THe sgt who taught my shooting class told me it'd go through bone and keep goin. Of course hollow points can easily have the potential to penetrate walls as well, but i would think you are beter off with that as opposed to target ball ammo and potentially a more compatible ammo for ur xd?

just my thoughts... i keep my bedside mag loaded with some winchester 180gr jhp.

 

[willbond]

I've used Speer Lawman Frangible ammo in my XD357 without a problem. The XD isn't known for being finicky about ammo, but if your gun doesn't like a particular type of ammo then don't use it.

 

[R/T Performance]

Was that the bonded tip fragment-able ammo?
Seems like that wouldn't jamm 8)

 

[Krackels]

Do you still have your stock weight recoil spring in your XD? It could be the load is weak and doesn't have enough power to fully eject and chamber a round. I doubt that is it. Are these Round Nose or Flat Nosed?

We need more specifics before we can start talking about what is wrong.

 

[Dragoon44]

Forget frangible ammo and just go with a Good JHP.

 

[DigMe]

Forget frangible ammo and just go with a Good JHP.

+1

brad cook

 

[BigBob68]

I have Magsafe in my S&W 637 airweight which can handle +p. I do not need it for any of my auto's and will probably be switching to Speer's new 135grn specially designed for the snubby.

 

[El Whapo]

Do you still have your stock weight recoil spring in your XD? It could be the load is weak and doesn't have enough power to fully eject and chamber a round. I doubt that is it. Are these Round Nose or Flat Nosed?


I still have the recoil spring taht came with the Xd and the rounds were flat nosed

 

[XD 40 mike]

I know exactly what you need. I also live in an aprtment complex and in the same situation you are. I have researched this ammunition thouroughly before I made my descision on what to use for home defense along with other frangibles and hollow points. This is what everyone should carry for personal and or Tactical defense in my opinion. So i will read it all off for everyone so everyone can make there own discissions after seeing PROOF, something you dont hardly ever see when you buy ammunition. Its actually a TFSP (Total Fragmenting Soft Point) and they have a TPD (Tactical Personal Defense)

That bullet kicks more ass than any hollow point in my opinion (no I have never shot it at anyone but after seeing the proof they provide), and it still will stop faster, and not rip through apartment doors, celings, walls etc. I dont know what size Tactical your shooting and it really doesn't matter with this bullet. Your typical hollowpoints (except Glasers&Magsafes) and stuff go somewhere between 900-1400feet per second. This ammunition travels at well, 40cal.(TPD) travels Over 2300feet per second & 800flbs. and in 9mm(TPD) Over 2300 fps. & 600 flbs. Granted, its only 50grains for 9mm and 70grains for 40s&w, but remember this is not a target/range bullet, this is what you need for your situation, if some one breaks in my house and I have family members in other rooms, I don't want to be ripping off full metal jacks for sure especially in an apartment complex, even the typical hollowpoints bounce around off of anything hard and certainly will blow clean through numerous layers of drywall.

Damage control: Bullets are shot through 4 layors of nylon to simulate human clothing and into 10% Ordnance Gelatin (what all bullets are fired into standard ballistc testing) at 30*

9mm TPD: Cavity Diameter 7'' and Penetration 9''
40s&w TPD: Cavity Diameter 9'' and Penetration 10''

Wouldn't want to get hit by either one of those, and if you dont like any of those numbers you can step down one notch to the (TFSP) total fragmenting soft point. Its the same thing just not as nasty.

shot at 30' into 10"x10"x16" 10% Calibrated Gelatin through four layers of ballistic nylon. Entrance through left end. No exit.

LOL, thats not even the nsaty one thats the TFSP, looks like from where I'm sitting you'de only have to fire probably only one of these rounds before someones going down, I doubt anyones getting up after having that done inside there torso, there wouldn't be anything left. Everything takes some serious damage.

And remember this is NOT a bashing everyone elses ammunition of choice type deal or I would have started my own thread, this is in response to a question, hollowpoints and magsafes(glasers) etc. is all good personal defense ammunition and they will all also put your ass down to the ground. This is just what I choose to use based on the facts of this ammunition. Here is there website and I hope you all find it as usefull as I did. It has gelatain testing done for all of the calibers and even some comparisons to other hollow points. www.rbcd.net(Le Mas inc.)

 

[DigMe]

And remember this is NOT a bashing everyone elses ammunition of choice type deal or I would have started my own thread, this is in response to a question, hollowpoints and magsafes(glasers) etc. is all good personal defense ammunition and they will all also put your ass down to the ground. This is just what I choose to use based on the facts of this ammunition. Here is there website and I hope you all find it as usefull as I did. It has gelatain testing done for all of the calibers and even some comparisons to other hollow points. www.rcbd.net(Le Mas inc.)

RBCD is snake oil. LeMas is a snakeoil salesman.

Just to save time, go to the following thread and scroll down to my second post in it:

http://www.hs2000talk.com/viewtopic.php?t=19726

brad cook

 

[retired]

It seemed like an interesting read until the end when I saw the "rcbd" reference.

Thank you Digme for your posts. I knew about this, being a Tacticalforums.com long time reader. Dr. Roberts knows his stuff, Lemas is exactly what you said; a snake oil salesman.

Hopefully, XD 40 mike will take the time to read what you have posted. They are very educational and show what the experts thing about Lemas.

+2

 

[XD 40 mike]

lol I am always open to opinions and in this case facts. But the TFSP and the TPD ammunition IS NOT the blended metals technology ammunition. It is two totally different types of ammunition. If you go to rcbd.net and look at his ammunition list you will see its two different types. You cant even get a BMT (blended metals technology) in anything less than 50cal. From them because its not legal or something I dont know why but I know they dont offer it for handguns. For whatever reason I do not know, never really read up on it that much, I mean I know the jist of what the Blended metals tech. ammunition is suppose to be able to penetrate Armor but not go through drywall yadda yadda.

I still don't see what this has to do with the information I posted.

 

[Dragoon44]

I would suggest you take another look at your supposed "Proof" that your favorite frangible ammo is the ultimate in self defense. notice how the round litterally blows apart after penetrating the gelatin after and inch or two. Now imagine that your attacker had a weapon infront of him and your round hit his arm: end result you super ammo blew up in his arm and didnt incapacitate him.

there are no magic super handgun bullets that will reliably put anyone's a## on the ground every time. you can stake your life on all the murdered gelatin you want to but I have actually used rounds like the Glaser safety slug and found they dont work as advertised which is why I only recommend good JHP ammo for self defense.

 

[XD 40 mike]

I would suggest you take another look at your supposed "Proof" that your favorite frangible ammo is the ultimate in self defense. notice how the round litterally blows apart after penetrating the gelatin after and inch or two. Now imagine that your attacker had a weapon infront of him and your round hit his arm: end result you super ammo blew up in his arm and didnt incapacitate him.

there are no magic super handgun bullets that will reliably put anyone's a## on the ground every time. you can stake your life on all the murdered gelatin you want to but I have actually used rounds like the Glaser safety slug and found they dont work as advertised which is why I only recommend good JHP ammo for self defense.

its a frangible, its suppose to do whats its designed to do

in your honest opinion.......by the looks of this, whats going to do the most damage A. and B. more safe in an apartment?

RBCD Performance Plus 40 S&W 77 gr. TFSP - Bottom Track

Federal Hydro Shock 155 gr. HSHP - Top Track

10"x10"x16" 10% Calibrated Gelatin




and they only offer the Blended Metals Technology Ammunition in a 50BMG

 

[agalindo]

I agree with Dragoon44 7inch of penetration is not enough to cause damage to vital organ at less than optimal angles. The BG is angled sideways to you with his arms out towards you. The bullet hits his arm fragments, not good most of bullet mass never gets to the vitals. You need at least 12 inches of penetration in order to get to vital organs at different angles and through any extremity that might obstruct them.

Check out this site. It has lots of very good info from FIREARMS TRAINING UNIT FBI ACADEMY.

http://www.firearmstactical.com/hwfe.htm

Here is what the author thinks of fragementing bullets.

reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs. The best example is the Glaser Safety Slug, a projectile designed to break up on impact and generate a large but shallow temporary cavity. Fackler, when asked to estimate the survival time of someone shot in the front mid-abdomen with a Glaser slug, responded, "About three days, and the cause of death would be peritonitis."14

"The velocity of pistol bullets, even of the new high-velocity loadings, is insufficient to cause the shedding of lead fragments seen with rifle bullets."15 It is obvious that any additional wounding effect caused by such fragmentation in a handgun wound is inconsequential.

 

[XD 40 mike]

This is from the same article, from right before where you started your quote...

Fragmentation occurs reliably in high velocity projectile wounds (impact velocity in excess of 2000 feet per second) inflicted by soft or hollow point bullets. In such a case, the permanent cavity is stretched so far, and so fast, that tearing and rupturing can occur in tissues surrounding the wound channel which were weakened by fragmentation damage. It can significantly increase damage in rifle bullet wounds.

Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle

He said Reliable fragmentation occurs at 2,000 feet per second.

The TPD ammunition flies at over 2300 feet per second

The 40S&W TPD penetrates 10 inches with a cavity diameter of 9 inches

Your quote does not apply to this ammunition because...

Since the highest handgun velocities generally do not exceed 1400-1500 feet per second (fps) at the muzzle, reliable fragmentation could only be achieved by constructing a bullet so frangible as to eliminate any reasonable penetration. Unfortunately, such a bullet will break up too fast to penetrate to vital organs.

He is referring to an ammunition type that flies at 1400-1500 feet per second. A frangible that flies at that speed would do all that crap he stated. Again the TPD flies at 2300fps.

 

[DigMe]

I still don't see what this has to do with the information I posted.

I would think that the fact that the very same company has a history of lying and pumping up their "proof" would have something to do with it. I don't care who the company is though, if you look at their marketing materials as some kind of conclusive "proof" of anything then you are a marketing man's wet dream.

brad cook

 

[Verm]

There is a reason police and military don't use fragmenting ammo, they aren't reliable to stop an assailant/enemy. What should also be noted is that while gelatin is close to human tissue, it fails to replicate such things as striated muscle and bone, both of which can and do deflect and effect projectiles. The RCBD rounds and the Extreme Shock rounds have failed every ballistics test EXCEPT the ones both companies produce.

If you use your weapon, it's because it's a life and death situation. Do you want to use something that everyone in the industry has found to be lacking to save your life? If you really want a fragmenting round for use in home defense, then look at a shotgun, otherwise stay with JHPs for pistols.

 

[Verm]

The TPD ammunition flies at over 2300 feet per second

The 40S&W TPD penetrates 10 inches with a cavity diameter of 9 inches
400-1500 feet per second. A frangible that flies at that speed would do all that crap he stated. Again the TPD flies at 2300fps.

and what does a 77 grain projectile that fragments upon impact do against bone like a sternum or heavy clothing? how about if the intruder is behind a doorway or table? If you are going to put your life on the line, you need to reseach the ammo and not just use their own sales brochures.