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I prefer the recommendations of this site: Ammunition For The Self-Defense Firearm
Agalindo is spot on, here.

Chuck Hawks' information may have been relevent during the Clinton regime, but bullet design has changed a lot since that was written.

Also--I refuse to take seriously anyone who references the mythical (as in: they never happened) Strasbourg Tests, or thinks Marshall & Sanow gave solid data.

The site referenced by the OP is up to date, using modern, relevent testing methods in the latest top-tier ammo.

Consign Chuck to the dustbin of history where he belongs...
 

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Agalindo is spot on, here.

Chuck Hawks' information may have been relevent during the Clinton regime, but bullet design has changed a lot since that was written.

Also--I refuse to take seriously anyone who references the mythical (as in: they never happened) Strasbourg Tests, or thinks Marshall & Sanow gave solid data.

The site referenced by the OP is up to date, using modern, relevent testing methods in the latest top-tier ammo.

Consign Chuck to the dustbin of history where he belongs...
Well, thanks for bringing me up-to-date. So what about the advice of Massad Ayoob: Choose your ammo...police style by Massad Ayoob Issue #93
 

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Well, thanks for bringing me up-to-date. So what about the advice of Massad Ayoob: Choose your ammo...police style by Massad Ayoob Issue #93
Well, considering that the top loads PD's are carrying these days would be Gold Dots, HST or Ranger-T, and usually in the heavier weights...I'd say they mostly tend to agree with each other.

He does seem hung up on the earleir generations of 147gr 9mm not performing...the newer versions work just dandy, and tend to outpenetrate the warp speed screamers. And since the standard pressure ammo will tend to shoot softer, and be easier to control for follow-up shots...just makes sense to me.
 

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Well, considering that the top loads PD's are carrying these days would be Gold Dots, HST or Ranger-T, and usually in the heavier weights...I'd say they mostly tend to agree with each other.

He does seem hung up on the earleir generations of 147gr 9mm not performing...the newer versions work just dandy, and tend to outpenetrate the warp speed screamers. And since the standard pressure ammo will tend to shoot softer, and be easier to control for follow-up shots...just makes sense to me.

Alot of departments still carry some ancient designs to this day though Cuda66. When I lived in the PacNW my favorite LGS would sell the ammo some of the departments that ordered from them when they did not take the entire order. I got a bunch of 9BPLE real cheap because of it. I even got alooooooot of the 95 grain Federal JSP rounds. One police department swore by them. Not me though! I got such a good buy on it I shot it all at the range for practice. It was accurate and reliable for such a light fast round. I tested a few on critters and some expanded and some blew right through. the key was hitting bone to get them to open up. Not what I want to gamble on when my life is on the line. 9BPLE on the other hand works the best of any 115 other than a good +P 115 XTP load. The later gives me an unheard of 15" average penetration. thats unreal for a 115, but the XTP is a great projectile in any weight IMO......
 

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True, but...a lot of agencies around here that carry older loads (HydraShok & Ranger SXT being the most prevalent) are just burning through stockpiles they bought several years ago; one local agency (small town PD; 3 officers) has said that when they finish off the HS rounds, they'll be upgrading to HST...and also changing from .40's to 9mm (cheaper to shoot).

And I do tend to agree with you about the XTP. I think that Hornady would do well to market them in a nickel plated case, 50-round box for a competitive price, they'd have a MUCH better product than Craptical Defense. I know I've got a couple hundred rounds of 230+P XTP that I wouldn't hesitate to use as carry ammo (assuming my gun liked it, of course...and XTP's tend to work well in most guns).
 

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(snip)..

9BPLE on the other hand works the best of any 115 other than a good +P 115 XTP load. The later gives me an unheard of 15" average penetration. thats unreal for a 115, but the XTP is a great projectile in any weight IMO......
The average adult male, sans pot-belly, is around 11-12" front to back in the chest area.(Feel free to check yourself..lay on your back on the floor with a 12" ruler next to your chest). 15" penetration would blow right through most people providing it doesn't hit bone.
 

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The average adult male, sans pot-belly, is around 11-12" front to back in the chest area.(Feel free to check yourself..lay on your back on the floor with a 12" ruler next to your chest). 15" penetration would blow right through most people providing it doesn't hit bone.
EXCEPT:

Real life shootings tend to not look anything at all like the neat-o silhouette targets we all like to blaze away at. Bad guys tend not to stand there with their arms hanging to the side, chest presented squarely to you...

The odds are good that your target will be presenting at the oblique, have an arm in front of their chest (like when holding a weapon, eh?)--or both.

Try measuring from the outside of your right bicep to your left nipple; bet it's over 12". That represents a very real possibility shot...personally, I'd like to know my round is capable of punching that far if it needs to.

Very few modern JHP's that function properly will penetrate skin on the off side; it tends to stretch and trap the bullet. Those few rounds that do penetrate are almost completely spent; they tend to either be stopped by clothing, or will be found laying on the ground a few feet beyond the target.
 

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The average adult male, sans pot-belly, is around 11-12" front to back in the chest area.(Feel free to check yourself..lay on your back on the floor with a 12" ruler next to your chest). 15" penetration would blow right through most people providing it doesn't hit bone.

Do you know that the skin is the most flexible organ the body has? It is very elastic. An expanded projectile has a very hard time exiting the off side skin. To exit the skin it will take about 4" of penetration off any expanded projectile. It is the reason in most real world shooting the projectile is found just under the offside skin. It is also the same reason when I shoot critters the projectiles do not exit. It will take a projectile that penetrates 17" in gello or flesh to exit the offside. My experience shooting critters confirms this to me and I have also read the same thing on rojectile penetration. If they do exit the projectiles mostly fall to the ground a short distance after exit. Keep in mind, there is still clothing that needs to be exited.

I have seen it with my own eyes where 9mm, 45 and 9x18mm have just barely made it through and sometimes had enough gusto left in them to just fall to the ground after hitting a wall. That was with ball too.
 

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EXCEPT:



Very few modern JHP's that function properly will penetrate skin on the off side; it tends to stretch and trap the bullet. Those few rounds that do penetrate are almost completely spent; they tend to either be stopped by clothing, or will be found laying on the ground a few feet beyond the target.
I was typing when you posted that. too funny......
 

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EXCEPT:

Real life shootings tend to not look anything at all like the neat-o silhouette targets we all like to blaze away at. Bad guys tend not to stand there with their arms hanging to the side, chest presented squarely to you...

The odds are good that your target will be presenting at the oblique, have an arm in front of their chest (like when holding a weapon, eh?)--or both.

Try measuring from the outside of your right bicep to your left nipple; bet it's over 12". That represents a very real possibility shot...personally, I'd like to know my round is capable of punching that far if it needs to.

Very few modern JHP's that function properly will penetrate skin on the off side; it tends to stretch and trap the bullet. Those few rounds that do penetrate are almost completely spent; they tend to either be stopped by clothing, or will be found laying on the ground a few feet beyond the target.
Have you actually done this Cuda? If so you must be a real hogger! I am 5'11" and 190 lbs. and not a weakling. I measured 9.5 inches with my arm at my side, through the arm to the left nipple.
 

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Try right arm to the left nipple. Try arm partially outstretched as in aiming a gun, at an angle. Don't think perfect right angle arms at side. Think about shooting at through an outstretched forearm and having to go through 4" to 6" inches of angled forearm or and angled arm.
 

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Have you actually done this Cuda? If so you must be a real hogger! I am 5'11" and 190 lbs. and not a weakling. I measured 9.5 inches with my arm at my side, through the arm to the left nipple.
Yep. And it's over 12"; in fact, one would have to be a scrawny little git to have a measurement of less than 12" for ouside of right bicep to their left nipple.

And Agalindo also nailed it for other situations as well...
 

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Yep. And it's over 12"; in fact, one would have to be a scrawny little git to have a measurement of less than 12" for ouside of right bicep to their left nipple.

And Agalindo also nailed it for other situations as well...
12'' of muscle? Figure in the lungs. They are no where near as dense as muscle tissue. While you're at it figure the distance from you right heel to your left nipple! Crap , the organs you are most likely to hit are the lungs and liver. If you count going in the right palm , traveling up the arm to the left nipple guess what? It's ever further. How about through a car window, two sheets of dry wall, into the right palm up the arm and to the left nipple? I know! How about through a jumping pit bull, into the right bicep to the left nipple? Just buy a decent hollow point and check for function and how well you shoot it and use it. A new theory on stopping power (and that is what the FBI protocol is) comes out every 5-10 years.
 
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