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Discussion Starter #1
I just finshed my first batch of ten rounds of 45ACP for my XDM. I used Hornaday 230 grain FMJ-RN, CCI 300 primers and 4.2 grains of W231. I spent a couple of hours adjusting the dies and loading a few wih no powder of primers to get the measurements right. Measuring the powder was the most time consuming part( i think it was me being very careful). But now that they are done and i have measured and remeasured they are right what i was going for. My only question is if they all measured right, do i or should i use the crimp die on them?
 

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It depends on the age of your dies. The modern dies generally don't need the factory crimp die. I've got a set of Lyman dies from the 70's and I do factory crimp those.
 

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Your seating die, all seating dies, have a crimp ring built into them. IMO, you always crimp, always. At least a modest crimp that turns the flare or bell back straight. It's the only way to insure every round fits regardless of what brass you are using.
I am pretty sure you got your data form the Hodgdon site. I can almost guarantee they will not function, charge is too light. You are well below starting for most manuals. You need to be closer to 5.2gr, that is even a moderate load. Also, OAL matters, use your bbl to set the alloweable OAL & make sure it fits the mag (you'll need to load 5-6 rounds into the mag). Bullets are NOT interchangeable. The 230grFP seats deeper than the RN & that raises pressures enough @ 1.200" to MAYBE function a slide.
Many want to short cut the reloading process now w/ the internet. Powder manuf sites DO NOT offer enough data IMO to allow proper load developement. They are good for cross ref load data, but you need multiple sources, ESPECIALLY if you are not using the EXACT components, which you are not. A proper load workup is best done using 2-3 sources of average data. I like to use average middle data. It has the best chance of functioning in the broadest choice of guns. Match the bullet & OAL as closely as possible to the data sources & then load 10rds at avg middle data. Load another 10rds +0.1gr & then -0.1gr. Shoot them in order. Note functioning, accuracy & any pressure signs or lack of. Someplace in that 30rds you are likely to find a sweet spot.
Welcome to a great new hobby!
 

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What brand dies are you using? Is the crimp die part of the same die set? Next) what are you using to measure the powder, like beam scale or electronic scale or powder dipper. 4.2 gr w-231 is a mim load but it should cycle the gun ok. don't go any lower than 4.2, your next ones can be 1/10 or 2/10 grain higher.
Now measure your loaded round's diameter right at the top where the bullet is seated. As long as the diameter there is not bigger than the original case factory deminsion then no crimp should be needed. Measure a factory loaded round diameter in the same spot (where the bullet seats) and your re-load should measure the same. If the diameter is bigger than factory specs you will need to re-adjust the crimp die (or seating die) lower. When you lower the die you will need to raise the seater plug the same amount to keep the OAL the same. Post questions.
Max load for w-231 over 230 gr hornady FMJ/FN is 5.3 gr. Do not Exceed 5.3 stay under 5.0 or lower, for now until you get to be an experianced reloader. Do not go under 4.2 either.
 

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Max load for w-231 over 230 gr hornady FMJ/FN is 5.3 gr. Do not Exceed 5.3 stay under 5.0 or lower, for now until you get to be an experianced reloader.
Says who? You've been reloading long enough to know if you look at 5 diff sources you'll get 5 diff max & starting data points. Hornady calls for 5.7gr of W231 as max, Lyman says 5.8gr, Speer says 6.2gr. I think that is pushing pretty hard, but I have gone w/ 5.7gr & it's only doing 850fps in my 5" guns & no pressure issues. Again, OAL matters, so if you are loading longer than data recommends, your pressures will be lower as will your vel. Depending on the OAL & gun used, I doubt proper functioning will be had @ 4.2gr. I doubt the vel would even be 700fps, about the min vel threshold for most 230gr bullets for reliable feeding in most guns.
 

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Says who? You've been reloading long enough to know if you look at 5 diff sources you'll get 5 diff max & starting data points. Hornady calls for 5.7gr of W231 as max, Lyman says 5.8gr, Speer says 6.2gr. I think that is pushing pretty hard, but I have gone w/ 5.7gr & it's only doing 850fps in my 5" guns & no pressure issues. Again, OAL matters, so if you are loading longer than data recommends, your pressures will be lower as will your vel. Depending on the OAL & gun used, I doubt proper functioning will be had @ 4.2gr. I doubt the vel would even be 700fps, about the min vel threshold for most 230gr bullets for reliable feeding in most guns.
Hi Fred, I wasn't trying to be confrontational about your post. I got my information from Hogdons own reloading center with their min/max load data. 4.2 gr of 231 according to them will push a 230 gr hornady bullet to 751 fps and 5.3 gr 231 will make 832 fps. I figure product liability keeps these loads well within safety limits. And I agree the older reloading manuals show higher settings, like my Hornady third edition shows 230 gr hornady FMJ with min 4.6 @ 600 fps min load and 6.0 max @ 800 fps. I give credit to the powder manufacture to be the safest and most likely more accurate than some other sources. Knowing you always caution new reloaders about using W231 and safe loading, I posted the powder mfg's data because the OP has only loaded 10 rounds at this time. Ray http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
 

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Hi Fred, I wasn't trying to be confrontational about your post. I got my information from Hogdons own reloading center with their min/max load data. 4.2 gr of 231 according to them will push a 230 gr hornady bullet to 751 fps and 5.3 gr 231 will make 832 fps. I figure product liability keeps these loads well within safety limits. And I agree the older reloading manuals show higher settings, like my Hornady third edition shows 230 gr hornady FMJ with min 4.6 @ 600 fps min load and 6.0 max @ 800 fps. I give credit to the powder manufacture to be the safest and most likely more accurate than some other sources. Knowing you always caution new reloaders about using W231 and safe loading, I posted the powder mfg's data because the OP has only loaded 10 rounds at this time. Ray http://data.hodgdon.com/main_menu.asp
Those are all data ref from current manuals. My only point, there are few absolutes. The Hogdon data is only valid using the components listed & the OAL shown. I can guarantee loading RNFMJ to the recommended OAL of 1.255"-1.270" will yield significantly lower pressure @ vel than a FPFMJ @ 1.200". The powder manuf is now diff than the bullet guys, there data is no more. All are pressure tested & found safe as loaded in that test platform. The more you study & research the more you'll find there are few absolutes, even for the newb reloader. Always keep in mind that the data acheived is very bullet type & OAL specific. Nothing is plug & play.
 

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Discussion Starter #8
i started with 4.2 grains of w231 because it was on there website,it came with my lee kit and a read it in another few places. i use a lyman beam scale. thats why i asked if i needed to use the factory crimp die because they were measuring right after the seating die. the oal is used was 1.245 because that was the average of the rounds that i had at home was( they were also 230 fmj-rn)
 

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Yes fred there a few absolutes but telling a newbie that max published loads can be ignored is not good advice. You yourself have always told newbies to start below max published loads and work up .1 grain at a time while looking for signs of over pressure.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
i re-did the seating die to get to 1.250 oal, but when i measure the round right below the bullet i measure mine between .471-.472. the factory rounds i have are .469-.470. when i use the factory crimp die it does not do anything to them
 

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Yes fred there a few absolutes but telling a newbie that max published loads can be ignored is not good advice. You yourself have always told newbies to start below max published loads and work up .1 grain at a time while looking for signs of over pressure.
I didn't say that. I said in effect that the min on Hodgdon' website wasn't particularly valid as the bullet & OAL are not identical. Then I point out that is why we use reloading manuals & MATCH components & data as closely as possible. I NEVER said ignore max data. In fact, read it again, I suggest using avg middle data & match components to acheive better results. Max is max for that exact data source in that platform. IMO, most powder manuf sites are a good check but hardly defientive. USe the manuals, don't short cut.
I don't mind a good debate, but don't misrepresent what I said.
 

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i re-did the seating die to get to 1.250 oal, but when i measure the round right below the bullet i measure mine between .471-.472. the factory rounds i have are .469-.470. when i use the factory crimp die it does not do anything to them
I don't like the measure the factory round thing much. Brass varies quite a bit in thickness, bullets vary slightly in dia. If you are around 0.471" OD, then you should be fine. Your removed bbl makes a really good case gage. To get more crimp, bnack the seating stem off & screw the die down 1/4 turn at a time.
 

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Discussion Starter #13 (Edited)
does it make a difference if i crimp with the seating die or the factory crimp?
 

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Hope this also helps the OP:

I was have the new Lyman book and comparing it Hodgen online data because my other book is are really old. Looking for another book but for now Lyman is maxing out almost where Hodgen is almost starting. What is a good couple of good loading books?

Also when measuring the OAL for pistols are you measuring from the ogive or the end of the bullet.

Using the barrel for a way to measure how can you tell its OK because the rim sticks out.
 

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does it make a difference if i crimp with the seating die or the factory crimp?
Both will apply the same taper crimp. The LFCD also swages the case/bullet down. It may improve functioning, but can be ruinous to accuracy. Yes I have tested one in 45acp, a brilliant solution to a nonexsistent problem, so I won't use a LFCD.
Also when measuring the OAL for pistols are you measuring from the ogive or the end of the bullet.
All data ref OAL is from base of case head to bullet point. It's why they all vary so much, every bullet is a little bit diff shape.
Reloading Manuals; I like the Lyman & Speer. Speer gives me nearly identical results as I get w/ my guns. They have some lead bullet data as does Lyman. Very useful for guys loading plated as they load clsoer to a lead bullet than a jacketed.
 

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Read that the 45acp headspaces off the case mouth that is why you don't want to crimp the 45 and also makes case length important. Is that correct.
 

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Read that the 45acp headspaces off the case mouth that is why you don't want to crimp the 45 and also makes case length important. Is that correct.
All semiauto rounds headsapce off the case mouth (357sig is the excpetion), BUT, most are held in place by the extractor. You ALWAYS crimp semiauto rounds for 100% reliability. The crimp is a taper crimp, not a roll crimp, so it isn't really crimping so much as removing the flare of the case mouth or a tiny bit more. You may get away w/o some taper crimp, but eventually it does bite you when you get a piece of brass that is just a bit too thick. If you are not flaring/belling the case mouth, that alos affect accuracy w/ plated & lead bullets. You can get away w/o belling using jacketed, but can collapse a case pretty easily or almost as bad, knick the bullet base & that plays havoc w/ accuracy.
 

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Thanks once again Fredj388; starting to get how to load handgun bullets.

Why is the 45acp particular about the lack of crimp?

So the Lee crimp die isn't it a taper crimp and the bullet seater a roll crimp?

I know all kinds of questions.
 

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Thanks once again Fredj388; starting to get how to load handgun bullets.

Why is the 45acp particular about the lack of crimp?

So the Lee crimp die isn't it a taper crimp and the bullet seater a roll crimp?

I know all kinds of questions.
NO, the 45acp is not particular about crimp. All semiautos need a slight taper crimp for 100% relaible functioning. The crimp doesn't hold the bulle tin place, just removes the bell.
All seting dies have a crimp ring built in; revolvers are roll crimp & autos are taper. Lee added the redundant LFCD, mostly in response to the GLock bulged 40 brass. It applies the identical crimp as the seating die & has a carbide ring that squeezes the entire round back to some spec. This unfortunately often sizes the bullet smaller making for a poor fit in th ebbl & poor accuracy.
 

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This is good to know because I getting ready to buy some 45 dies. The info is great help, I running a Lyman t-mag and without the LFCD I can put both sets of dies in and not worry.
 
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