Springfield XD Forum banner
1 - 12 of 12 Posts

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Discussion Starter · #1 ·
this is not another one of those which is better threads, rather a post of my findings and my experience with the two.


yesterday I took my brand new unfired xd(m) compact 40 out to my private range. I really just wanted to put a couple hundred fmj's down the pipe and get a feel for the new gun. well, after putting 100 rounds down the pipe I pulled out my Federal HST's (165gr & 180gr) and loaded one mag with 165's and the other with the 180's. I've been saving milk jugs for the past several months because I wanted to catch one of each to see the difference in expansion and test penetration


I test fired two of each and I know this is not very scientific nor accurate but here were my findings:


Federal HST 165gr:
* both shots landed in the 4th jug.
* increased muzzle flash.
* about 25% more snappy than the 180gr HST.



Federal HST 180gr:
* they either got stuck in the back of the 3rd jug or came to rest in the 3rd jug.
* expansion of the 180's were significantly greater than the 165's.
* softer shooting and less muzzle flash than the 165's.


I've done my fair share of reading up on ballistic tests. from what I have gathered, typically the heavier bullet should penetrate deeper. however, in my case this was not proven to be true. so why is it that the heavier bullet should penetrate more? I tend to think it should be the other way around assuming both bullets are of the same brand and caliber.

my reason for believing so is the heavier bullet is moving slower and should expand more thus slowing down faster.

looking at the 165gr bullets the petals are completely folded back against the core. the 180's on the other hand opened up wider but didn't push the petals back near as far as the 165's. holding both in your hand the 165gr bullets feel heavier and more solid, despite the 180gr expanding more.

I didn't have a scale to weigh the bullets but will upload pictures in the morning.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,197 Posts
Federal HST 165gr:
* both shots landed in the 4th jug.
* increased muzzle flash.
* about 25% more snappy than the 180gr HST.



Federal HST 180gr:
* they either got stuck in the back of the 3rd jug or came to rest in the 3rd jug.
* expansion of the 180's were significantly greater than the 165's.
* softer shooting and less muzzle flash than the 165's.


I've done my fair share of reading up on ballistic tests. from what I have gathered, typically the heavier bullet should penetrate deeper. however, in my case this was not proven to be true. so why is it that the heavier bullet should penetrate more? I tend to think it should be the other way around assuming both bullets are of the same brand and caliber.

my reason for believing so is the heavier bullet is moving slower and should expand more thus slowing down faster.

looking at the 165gr bullets the petals are completely folded back against the core. the 180's on the other hand opened up wider but didn't push the petals back near as far as the 165's. holding both in your hand the 165gr bullets feel heavier and more solid, despite the 180gr expanding more.

I didn't have a scale to weigh the bullets but will upload pictures in the morning.
You've answered your own question. The greater exp slow the bullet faster, less penetration. If the 180gr bullet lost any weight, that slows momentum & along w/ the larger frontal area, reduces penetration.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Discussion Starter · #3 ·
You've answered your own question. The greater exp slow the bullet faster, less penetration. If the 180gr bullet lost any weight, that slows momentum & along w/ the larger frontal area, reduces penetration.
you may have misunderstood my purposed for starting this thread. I'm quite aware why the 180gr HST didn't penetrate more. the concern I have is why does the general public tend to believe the heavier bullets penetrate more? of course they are heavier but they are also traveling a bit slower and usually expand wider which should slow it down even faster.

my simple reason for starting this thread was to share my experience, findings, and a little comparison of the two.



Federal 165gr HST



Federal 180gr HST




Federal 165gr HST (Left) : Federal 180gr HST (Right)




Federal 165gr HST (Left) : Federal 180gr HST (Right)

 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
The difference is you are shooting into water not a tissue simulant. Expansion is much better in water than in tissue or tissue simulant. The larger the expansion the sooner it slows down. The 165gr penetrated more because they over expanded, curled over petals.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
1,790 Posts
The difference is you are shooting into water not a tissue simulant. Expansion is much better in water than in tissue or tissue simulant. The larger the expansion the sooner it slows down. The 165gr penetrated more because they over expanded, curled over petals.

and when you step away from the gello the ball game changes once again. Bones, dense muscle tissue, elastic skin, air filled lungs. When you shoot live animals you get a range of penetration.

One of my most used 9x19mm 147 grain loads on deer gives me consistant 10"-17" of penetration. It gets 13" in gello. Every projectile I ever put into a live animal has exhibited a penetration range rather than a consistant number.

Seeing the OP got plenty of penetration in tough water tells me he will be fine with either. The HST is also one of the most consistant round to expand all the time.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
1,756 Posts
The difference is you are shooting into water not a tissue simulant. Expansion is much better in water than in tissue or tissue simulant. The larger the expansion the sooner it slows down. The 165gr penetrated more because they over expanded, curled over petals.

Not in my backyard test. My Pork shoulder test resulted in slightly over 1" of expansion at the largest sections. My khaki water jug test, and previous bare water jug tests resulted in around .850-.900" expansion (again at the largest sections) of the same 230gr +P HST.

 

·
Registered
Joined
·
3 Posts
I don't know about you but I don't plan on being attacked by a water jug anytime soon. What is important is what effect with the 165 or 180 HST have on an assailant. Either round will give you more than 12 incheds of penetration, the FBI minimum for what they will consider for a service round. That being said, once you have good penetration established for both of these rounds, what is important is the energy transfer to the target (stopping power). Both the 165 and 180 HST will do the job in excellent fashion. The 180 has more mass and isn't travelin that much slower than the 165, about 120 fps slower. But in more scientific gel tests the 180 had equal or greater penetration than smaller, faster rounds. It was the mass (weight) of the bullet that carried it deeper. Two other factors are muzzle flash at night and recoil. The hotter smaller rounds tend to have more night-blinding muzzle flash, something you don't want. Additionally, the lighter rounds will have more recoil than the 180, especially in a lighter polymer weapon. I have both 165 and 180 HSTs as a primary defense load and like them both. I won't go less than 165 for the 40 cal. and 147 for the 9mm.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Discussion Starter · #10 ·
I don't know about you but I don't plan on being attacked by a water jug anytime soon. What is important is what effect with the 165 or 180 HST have on an assailant. Either round will give you more than 12 incheds of penetration, the FBI minimum for what they will consider for a service round. That being said, once you have good penetration established for both of these rounds, what is important is the energy transfer to the target (stopping power). Both the 165 and 180 HST will do the job in excellent fashion. The 180 has more mass and isn't travelin that much slower than the 165, about 120 fps slower. But in more scientific gel tests the 180 had equal or greater penetration than smaller, faster rounds. It was the mass (weight) of the bullet that carried it deeper. Two other factors are muzzle flash at night and recoil. The hotter smaller rounds tend to have more night-blinding muzzle flash, something you don't want. Additionally, the lighter rounds will have more recoil than the 180, especially in a lighter polymer weapon. I have both 165 and 180 HSTs as a primary defense load and like them both. I won't go less than 165 for the 40 cal. and 147 for the 9mm.
couldn't find anyone willing to stand in front of me while I took the shots, a water jug was the best I had.

this test between the 165 & 180 was more or less to check the recoil, muzzle flash, etc..and catching them in a jug was an extra just to compare.

I will only carry 180's after my testing. I feel it expands, will penetrate deeper, and is easier to shoot faster.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
29,876 Posts
couldn't find anyone willing to stand in front of me while I took the shots, a water jug was the best I had.

this test between the 165 & 180 was more or less to check the recoil, muzzle flash, etc..and catching them in a jug was an extra just to compare.

I will only carry 180's after my testing. I feel it expands, will penetrate deeper, and is easier to shoot faster.
You do realize how stupid of an argument that is... :rolleyes:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
87 Posts
Discussion Starter · #12 ·
You do realize how stupid of an argument that is... :rolleyes:
you do realize it was a poke back at the "attacked by water jugs" statement..don't you?

of course water jugs are not the best media for ballistic testing, not by far. it was simply to catch the slugs and toss them in my night stand..nothing more.

:rolleyes:
 
1 - 12 of 12 Posts
Top