I DO NOT see where an extended grip safety will improve anything, unless you have a proper grip.

 

It's very rare, but every so often I will manage to loosen my grip in some way and the gun won't go bang.

Can you elaborate as to these instances?

 

Not really...it's happened maybe 5 or 6 times in the last year, and always when first drawing from concealment. I think my angle of grip is wrong. I'm high enough up, but there's enough gap between the web of my hand and the grip to not sufficiently depress the safety. Someone I trained with said he'd had an XD previously and had experienced the same, so he bought a Glock instead, but suggested that extended grip safeties would alleviate those rare instances because the safety switch itself protrudes further and is harder to miss if your grip loosens up.

I have no idea if that's right or not.

 

^ Ah.

That is reading like it is mostly a software issue, and not necessarily a hardware issue.

If you're gripping low enough or loose enough that you're not getting the grip safety to properly deactivate, you're going to have bigger problems than the dead trigger on the draw. If your grip is that compromised, it's more than possible that you're going to induce a stoppage once that first shot goes out (i.e. that the end-result would be akin to "limp wristing") or that in a close-quarters/entangled scenario, that gun will be all too easy to wrestle from your hand. In either case, even with a handgun that doesn't have the grip safety as a worry, you're still going to be fighting from way low on the power curve.

The key to a good draw from concealment is efficiency and consistency. The efficiency translates directly into speed. The consistency translates into a solid fighting platform.

In order to achieve this, it means that EACH and EVERY draw you practice needs to be an absolutely perfect repetition. You can be super-diligent and do 1,000 reps of the draw a day, but if each rep is rushed and imperfect, that's going to be a thousand different variations that you're putting into your brain. Instead, slowing down and doing just 20 absolutely perfect draws and presentations, ending each with a perfect dry-fire press as that sight package settles in, will ingrain what that path SHOULD be, so that even under dire stress, you'll still get it perfect.

* not my video

^ Pat McNamara there is on an OWB setup, but the idea is the same. Those sub-2 second draws looked like an eternity on each rep, right?

He's about 10 years older than I am, too, in his low-mid-50s now, IIRC - and he's professed that his eyesight is making it difficult for him to get a sharp front sight on the sight package. But you know what, I'll bet dollars to balls that those shots of his, at that speed, are literally laying right on top of each other, cloverleaf.

Draw-to-first-shot is not about a spastic "rip and grip." That seeming speed is actually just the manifestation of the efficiency of what is an absolutely regimented and perfected set of movements.

The master grip is everything. It's got to be established before that gun comes out of the holster. Whether you're competing or shooting dynamically for a "tactical" class or entangled in a force-on-force fight with two guys who are both twice your size, you can't afford to be playing with that grip after the gun comes out of the holster - you'll be slower to the shot or compromise recoil-control (thus leading to slower follow-up shots) at-best...at worst, you're going to be inducing a stoppage after that first shot or you're going to lose that gun because someone manages to rip it from your hand or that it just drops free from an otherwise really not that bad of a bump/fall.

If your master-grip is imperfect, you've got to slow down and ask yourself where is it flying apart. Is it because of how you've set your holster to present the gun? Or is it because your draw stroke is inconsistent at that point?

Your Vedder Lite Tuck thread shows the following picture:

http://www.xdtalk.com/posts/6570857/

That is a known-quantity holster, and it looks like there should be more than enough grip above the belt/waist-line for you to grab and achieve a good grip.

I do see that the clip is set to a significant cant, though - does this correspond well with the natural break-over angle at your wrist, when you draw from whatever clocking you currently have the holster sitting? This can potentially make for that initial mis-grab.

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All that said, you noted:

I'm high enough up, but there's enough gap between the web of my hand and the grip to not sufficiently depress the safety.

If the web between your thumb and trigger finger is at the tang/beavertail, then the only possible incorrect execution that would cause the grip safety to not be sufficiently depressed would be a severe undergrip, like what's seen on the LEFT panel, below:

* stolen from ( Grip Your Handgun Correctly and Shoot Better | Colorado Concealed Carry )

With that undergrip, I can get to the point where my palm opens up enough that I sometimes get a dead trigger - but with my hand/finger size (I'm a "large," as measured via both Magpul's glove selection as well as the SKD PIG glove line-up, whose "large" size fits on me like a second skin; I squeeze into size 7 ad 1/2 surgical gloves, though, because I like that fit to be really, really tight, so YMMV :lol: ), I find that I can barely trip the trigger safety sufficiently.

With an overgrip, as typified by the RIGHT most panel above, my thumb actually holds down the trigger safety.

If a severe undergrip is your problem, that's something you need to fix on the software side. Physically altering the grip is also possible, but it should be for final/fine fitting, not to correct for a problem in technique.

It's also possible that if your hand lacks a really prominent thenar eminance, you may not be able to depress the grip safety sufficiently. In this case, the extended grip safeties should be a viable fix.

But if we roll back to the holster setup question before the break, above, it's possible that too-severe of a cant on the holster setup can cause your wrist to not be able to break over far enough to sufficiently bed the web of your dominant hand into the beavertail/tang of the grip, and thus cause a void in that area, despite the appearance that you're actually gripping high enough. To achieve sufficient control over the gun, you've really got to get that web crammed into the beavertail/tang area:

* again, not my video

Just look at the beginning minute and 30 seconds, for now.

Here, you'll note that Vogel's grip is so high that he actually has some scars from where the slide's bitten him in the past. With the way the XD-platform double-stackers are built, it's going to be virtually impossible to ride your hand that high, but you should have your hand literally as far up into that beavertail/tang as possible.

Would it be possible for you to post pictures or videos of your problem?

Also, out of curiosity, where are you in Ohio? I may have asked you this before, but it managed to slip my mind. Ohio is one of those weird states where there's good training resources pretty much all-over.

 

TSiWRX, I think you're stalking me and my weird gun problems :razz: Thanks again for such thorough answers!

One point that I just considered...I only recently switched to the Vedder holster, and specifically because the older holster had a very low ride height that tended to interfere with my grip when I grabbed the gun. I have not had any further problems like this since switching to the holster that rides higher and gives more clearance for my hand between the grip and my belt. I may have already solved my own problem.

Southwest Ohio, and yes there's training everywhere, but I've heard so many "expert" opinions on how to grip my gun that I've found myself confused. The pointer about the extended mag release came from a trainer at a tactical range recently, who said he'd had an XD and sometimes had grip safety problems -- to which I said "yeah, I've had that happen a few times before -- and he pointed me at the extended safety mods. Which prompted my question here.

That last video you posted was great! I noticed his support hand position was far forward, and his index finger wraps around the trigger guard. That's how I shoot! I've found that gripping the trigger guard tightly with my support hand gives me a considerably better grip overall, and much better control during recoil and fast shooting. It also keeps my support-hand thumb from slipping off the gun when it recoils. The same tactical instructor saw how I was holding it and made a big deal about how wrong that is, because my index finger could get in the way of my trigger finger (it never has before...)

Honestly after taking that class, I floundered a bit before returning to what I'd been doing before. Anyway, it may be that I'm over the problem of the grip safety. I just thought I'd post a question on it...these things are pretty expensive and it isn't clear to me what benefit they'd really offer if my grip isn't right already.

 

TSiWRX, I think you're stalking me and my weird gun problems :razz: Thanks again for such thorough answers!

:lol: I try - at least for fellow Buckeyes!

One point that I just considered...I only recently switched to the Vedder holster, and specifically because the older holster had a very low ride height that tended to interfere with my grip when I grabbed the gun. I have not had any further problems like this since switching to the holster that rides higher and gives more clearance for my hand between the grip and my belt. I may have already solved my own problem.

Sweet!

Southwest Ohio, and yes there's training everywhere, but I've heard so many "expert" opinions on how to grip my gun that I've found myself confused.

Agreed.

The thing is, there are so many good shooters - and so many who (un)fortunately have been there and (thankfully, regardless of the interpretation of the former) have come back or who are still in the fray. They each give us their unique take on what they believe to be "best" for them. From there, it's up to us to rinse and repeat, to sift out for ourselves what's most applicable to us both in terms of our everyday life as well as in terms of techniques/tactics which work for our advantage, given the innumerable considerations that our unique being as an n-of-1 person imposes.

The pointer about the extended mag release came from a trainer at a tactical range recently, who said he'd had an XD and sometimes had grip safety problems -- to which I said "yeah, I've had that happen a few times before -- and he pointed me at the extended safety mods. Which prompted my question here.

That last video you posted was great! I noticed his support hand position was far forward, and his index finger wraps around the trigger guard. That's how I shoot! I've found that gripping the trigger guard tightly with my support hand gives me a considerably better grip overall, and much better control during recoil and fast shooting. It also keeps my support-hand thumb from slipping off the gun when it recoils. The same tactical instructor saw how I was holding it and made a big deal about how wrong that is, because my index finger could get in the way of my trigger finger (it never has before...)

Yup - each is unique, and each will give you their take.

Vogel is a very, very physical and physically talented shooter. His physical hand-grip is just the foundation for his overall grip and upper-body presentation - the latter of which contributes directly to how much "grip" he puts into his grip:

http://www.xdtalk.com/threads/grip-this.257169/

With each instructor/instructional cadre, you'll find that they'll present to you their beliefs and practices, and that may in-turn negate what you've learned - or even all you have learned - before.....and that's OK.....

Honestly after taking that class, I floundered a bit before returning to what I'd been doing before. Anyway, it may be that I'm over the problem of the grip safety.

Yup, exactly why I left above where I did.

A friend of mine went to that class with me - and he really found that Vogel's methods spoke volumes to him, in being built physically the same as Vogel, and in also being very athletic. He therefore decided, on-the-spot, to completely adopt what Vogel demonstrated to and with each of us - you'll see that I've detailed this in the thread I cited, above.

For the rest of that morning, my friend shot *horribly*.

But as he integrated Vogel's technique as the day wore on, we saw his shooting normalize back to where he was before the class - and then surpass it late into the day.

And here's the thing - you can't re-build without first taking something down, and this means that oftentimes, as you try to adopt new methods and techniques that you flounder a bit. That's normal. That's OK. Until you build up that proficiency around the new procedure, it's going to be that way.

Don't be afraid to try. Indeed, the reason why you paid good money for that class was because you heard that the instructor/school was a good one, right? So if that's the case, why not give what they've taught you a good and honest try?

I just thought I'd post a question on it...these things are pretty expensive and it isn't clear to me what benefit they'd really offer if my grip isn't right already.

And that's a good question, too. See where it took us?

I really think that if you established a proper grip as you came out of the holster, you'll be fine. And what's more, that the good master-grip that you establish will pay off in more ways than one.

 

Okay I put the PRP on most of mine, XD40 SC Mod 2, XDS 40, XD9 Service Mod 2, XDM9 5.25, I am a fan, especially if doing a malfunction drill.
I use a Blade-Tech OWB for the longer guns.

 

Okay I put the PRP on most of mine, XD40 SC Mod 2, XDS 40, XD9 Service Mod 2, XDM9 5.25, I am a fan, especially if doing a malfunction drill.

Would you kindly describe how the extended grip safety has helped you, versus the standard OE component? i.e. That it's easier for you to do support-hand-only stoppage reduction, etc.

Just something that's a bit more detailed.

Honest question, just looking for data points.

 

Thanks, STiWRX! Great info. Are you a philosopher in your spare time? Very deep answers to questions I didn't know I had! Great videos and stuff too. I'm going to look up Vogel. After all I'm highly athletic and incredibly fit! (And then I wake up).

 

^ Got it! Thank you!

Particularly for those of us with old injuries - or simply an outside-of-norms way in which our anatomy articulates - sometimes a hardware fix is the only fix possible.

And confidence is also tremendously important: and similarly worth pursuing even at the expense and trouble of a hardware fix.

 

Thanks, STiWRX! Great info. Are you a philosopher in your spare time? Very deep answers to questions I didn't know I had! Great videos and stuff too. I'm going to look up Vogel. After all I'm highly athletic and incredibly fit! (And then I wake up).

^ ROFL! :lol:

And nope, I'm nowhere near a philosopher. I just get "diarrhea at the keyboard" sometimes. I'm from the old BBS days, so I type pretty fast (and don't mind typing), so I tend to try to be complete when I have a few spare moments. Given that I started out self-taught, I know how steep that learning curve is, so I want to pay it forward by giving a hand to my fellow shooters who either are heading out on their own or who are simply starting out. I'm by no means an advanced shooter, but I like to help out where I can, best as I can.

Vogel is local to Ohio, and he gives private lessons in his down-time. A day with him alone on his private range will cost you as much as a three-day "tactical" class, but I was repeatedly told by shooters who are much better than I am that it's more than worth the cost. Having simply been in one of the man's open-enrollment classes (with about 10 other shooters on the line), I have little doubt that's true.

 

Vogel is local to Ohio, and he gives private lessons in his down-time. A day with him alone on his private range will cost you as much as a three-day "tactical" class, but I was repeatedly told by shooters who are much better than I am that it's more than worth the cost. Having simply been in one of the man's open-enrollment classes (with about 10 other shooters on the line), I have little doubt that's true.

I'm gonna have to do a class with Bob Vogel. Got serious about it a couple years ago but that's when Alias Training fell apart and all the affiliated instructors went their own way. Fortunately I had not made a deposit though I was on the verge of doing so. Swapped a couple of emails with him and he seemed like a very nice guy. Ended up training with a couple other organizations but it's time to train with him.

So you're a former BBS guy? Me too. Also a former user of US Robotics modems from back in the golden age of computers.

 

Had one for years, no problems. Sure, with proper grip and perfect conditions you should not need one, but nothing wrong with a little extra insurance imo.
That said, I have owned 7 XD family pistols and have fired in excess of 20,000 rounds with ZERO grip safety related malfunctions.

 

^ That's nice texturing, too!

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I think the biggest problem with the grip safety is one of individual fit and anatomic articulation. There are just folks out there that it's simply not compatible with, despite the fact that this particular design is actually considered by many to be easier for certain-deactivation versus the 1911/2011 setup.

It's for this reason that I have always maintained that new-to-the-platform shooters who intend for these handguns to be their defensive weapons to take the time and insure that they can properly perform single-handed manipulations - including of their non-dominant hand - particularly when combined with the left-of-frame only slide catch/release.

---

I'm gonna have to do a class with Bob Vogel. Got serious about it a couple years ago but that's when Alias Training fell apart and all the affiliated instructors went their own way. Fortunately I had not made a deposit though I was on the verge of doing so. Swapped a couple of emails with him and he seemed like a very nice guy. Ended up training with a couple other organizations but it's time to train with him.

The Alias mess really hurt. As a frequent student of the community, I both lamented its loss as well as was angered by the events.

Vogel truly is an awesome guy. While the class I attended was filled with students who were of significantly better skill than mine, he never once made me feel unwelcome, and even took the time to relay to me a funny tale of his own skittishness, which managed to calm my nerves (I admitted to him that I'd been a bit star-struck by his presence).

So you're a former BBS guy? Me too. Also a former user of US Robotics modems from back in the golden age of computers.

Now that's neat!

Yup, that's how I started in online communities - way back when we had to type really fast to be sure that we were able to keep up with the flow of conversations! :lol: