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Look at the post above the one I quoted (38).
No matter what I say you will argue, so I'll just say, no.

My post above (34) shows factual info of a person I know that would be dead if he had your mentality, but again, you will argue so why should I bother?
So your logic hinges on some outlandish scenario where a single defender may have to take on 4-5- or 20 combatants? I accept that a persons "fight" may not fall into the statistical norms but I am not going base my SD consideration on a rather fringe construct. Others might and that is fine.
 

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So your logic hinges on some outlandish scenario where a single defender may have to take on 4-5- or 20 combatants? I accept that a persons "fight" may not fall into the statistical norms but I am not going base my SD consideration on a rather fringe construct. Others might and that is fine.
Yeah my driver is the one person that has ever had multiple attackers. I guess I'll tell the other two people I know that were involved in multiple attacker shootings that it didn't happen because some guy on the internet thinks he is correct.

Ignorant comments like that are why I answered above with a simple, No. I know from your other posts that it isn't worth trying.

I hope you live a safe life in fantasyville while being happy.
 

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My point was missed, maybe I didn't explain myself correctly.

My point was, its important to know our limits and select a platform and caliber we can handle. Im all for staying in the fight until the threat is no longer a threat. Being a responsible firearm owner means being proficient with your weapon and knowing your capabilities. Drawing your weapon and emptying your magazine in a situation where you have a good chance of hurting or killing innocent bystanders is irresponsible. If you can dump a 380 mag in to a perps chest great but if you pull a micro 45 and dump your mag and hit your target once what are the rest of those bullets hitting?
No kidding... Says the resident devils advocate. Yes, we know. The point wasn't missed. We are discussing fire fights that go beyond the typical, stereotypical... 3 or less rounds. A fire fight is a fire fight. All bets are off. The one responsible is the one that caused the need for deadly force. Yes, we will try really hard not to harm innocent bystanders while we are trying not to die.
 

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You are entitled to your opinion..


I do not fault the Deputy for continuing to fire but I stand by my assessment. The offender was not likely to do much more than he did ( after the 3rd shot). Perhaps you do not see what I see.
To me an individual behaving in such a manner is a ticking time bomb. A person who does not appreciate life doesn't deserve it.
 

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No kidding... Says the resident devils advocate. Yes, we know. The point wasn't missed. We are discussing fire fights that go beyond the typical, stereotypical... 3 or less rounds. A fire fight is a fire fight. All bets are off. The one responsible is the one that caused the need for deadly force. Yes, we will try really hard not to harm innocent bystanders while we are trying not to die.
A fire fight is a fire fight. All bets are off. The one responsible is the one that caused the need for deadly force.

Wow, ok so you have no problem hurting or killing a innocent person because your mind set is "real men carry a 45" and not what you are most proficient with.
 

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A fire fight is a fire fight. All bets are off. The one responsible is the one that caused the need for deadly force.

Wow, ok so you have no problem hurting or killing a innocent person because your mind set is "real men carry a 45" and not what you are most proficient with.
Nope, said nothing even remotely close. But I'm sure you have an awesome retort tee'ed up to defeat that straw man. Go get 'em killer...
 

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Nope, said nothing even remotely close. But I'm sure you have an awesome retort tee'ed up to defeat that straw man. Go get 'em killer...
Seems to me like we are off timing on the subject. I bet if sat down and had a verbal conversation that we would both probably see eye to eye. So there's no need to carry on this conversation have a good night brother.
 

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Seems to me like we are off timing on the subject. I bet if sat down and had a verbal conversation that we would both probably see eye to eye. So there's no need to carry on this conversation have a good night brother.
We probably would, Which is why this ridiculous statement... Wow, ok so you have no problem hurting or killing a innocent person because your mind set is "real men carry a 45" and not what you are most proficient with... was completely off base.

You too...
 

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Yeah my driver is the one person that has ever had multiple attackers. I guess I'll tell the other two people I know that were involved in multiple attacker shootings that it didn't happen because some guy on the internet thinks he is correct.

Ignorant comments like that are why I answered above with a simple, No. I know from your other posts that it isn't worth trying.

I hope you live a safe life in fantasyville while being happy.
My comments have nothing to do with whether or not the event you described actually happened. I accepted (for the sake of discussion) that they did happen as you outlined. It does not change the fact that such an event is well outside the statistical norm and is considered by [me] to be far outside of what I would plan to mitigate. As I stated previously, there are people who might consider protecting against such a ( 4 attacker) circumstance as part of their day to day SD endeavors. There are also people who might install a 12 point roll cage in their daily driver..If so, there is nothing wrong with it.. thats them. Everyone has their own method in regards to how they assess risk. My method is not a foreign concept and a plan to answer a singular attacker, at rather close range, in a short time and few shots fired- is rather textbook. Others may feel different and I aint mad at them. I simply offer my thoughts and reasoning for those who may be open to them. - good luck
 

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Before the ammo shortage just like some here I used to put 3-500 rds down range a month we trained. But as Murphy has proven no plan survived initial contact. This 3rd thing to me is null and void. The whole purpose is to survive period.
All that 3 and done could get you killed. Adrielin fear, then thinking about what you have to do in microseconds all the while trying for shot placement is difficult to say the least. Getting off the x moving seeking cover counting rounds.
Come on seals and combat troops even they lose track.
But one thing for me for if I hit you I'm going to keep hitting you till you change shape or catch fire I'll deal with the rest later.
 

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Before the ammo shortage just like some here I used to put 3-500 rds down range a month we trained. But as Murphy has proven no plan survived initial contact. This 3rd thing to me is null and void. The whole purpose is to survive period.
All that 3 and done could get you killed. Adrielin fear, then thinking about what you have to do in microseconds all the while trying for shot placement is difficult to say the least. Getting off the x moving seeking cover counting rounds.
Come on seals and combat troops even they lose track.
But one thing for me for if I hit you I'm going to keep hitting you till you change shape or catch fire I'll deal with the rest later.
My comments are not to promote a 3 and your're done mindset. It was a rebuke of the idea that 38/380 (smallish) pistols are not up to the task of self defense. The Deputy did not have the luxury of carefully eyeing the effects of each singular shot during a fast moving crisis. We have that luxury after the fact and with the aide of slow mo video. I am simply saying that this fight was seemingly over in short order (around 3 -4 shots) and I feel that a smaller 38/380 would have resulted in a similar result with an identical 3-4 shots.

As far as the idea that no plan survives initial contact. I do not think that "saying" is likely intended to be taken literally. The whole reason why plans are developed is because they do often survive initial contact and result in a positive result. That said, there is a good reason that a plan B is generally considered to be prudent. Its not that NO plan survives, its that circumstances do not ALWAYS track as we expect or as we would prefer. The term "a flawless plan" or "the plan went off without a hitch" exist in our lexicon for good reason.

Statistics matter and stats are commonly used in risk assessments, profiles, tactics and strategic planning all around the globe. Stats are not the be all- end all but they do stand as a powerful tool which can be used to help qualify certain efforts, goals and expectations.

A person is never guaranteed a fight which adheres to the statistical norms but many would argue that it "probably" will. Probabilities are the popular standard in many decision making processes when efforts to mitigate an unwelcomed condition are not boundless. The effort to mitigate near all manner of conceivable possibilities is often unrealistic or unattainable.

The bottom line is that although I do not always carry a smallish, low capacity j-frame, there is nothing in this video that indicates to me that the sky is falling when I do.
 

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My comments are not to promote a 3 and your're done mindset. It was a rebuke of the idea that 38/380 (smallish) pistols are not up to the task of self defense. The Deputy did not have the luxury of carefully eyeing the effects of each singular shot during a fast moving crisis. We have that luxury after the fact and with the aide of slow mo video. I am simply saying that this fight was seemingly over in short order (around 3 -4 shots) and I feel that a smaller 38/380 would have resulted in a similar result with an identical 3-4 shots.

As far as the idea that no plan survives initial contact. I do not think that "saying" is likely intended to be taken literally. The whole reason why plans are developed is because they do often survive initial contact and result in a positive result. That said, there is a good reason that a plan B is generally considered to be prudent. Its not that NO plan survives, its that circumstances do not ALWAYS track as we expect or as we would prefer. The term "a flawless plan" or "the plan went off without a hitch" exist in our lexicon for good reason.

Statistics matter and stats are commonly used in risk assessments, profiles, tactics and strategic planning all around the globe. Stats are not the be all- end all but they do stand as a powerful tool which can be used to help qualify certain efforts, goals and expectations.

A person is never guaranteed a fight which adheres to the statistical norms but many would argue that it "probably" will. Probabilities are the popular standard in many decision making processes when efforts to mitigate an unwelcomed condition are not boundless. The effort to mitigate near all manner of conceivable possibilities is often unrealistic or unattainable.

The bottom line is that although I do not always carry a smallish, low capacity j-frame, there is nothing in this video that indicates to me that the sky is falling when I do.
And thats the real issue. If I really planned for the wrost, I would carry full size, 3 mags, and probably a back up. If I actually planned for a fire fight, I sure as heck would not carry a sub compact. Fact is the statics say my need to use a fire arm is exceedingly rare. Of those rare cases, the chances of me needing 15 or more rounds, multiple mags, approaches astronomical.
 
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I am an anesthesiologist in a busy trauma center. Often see multiple rounds in chest, abdomen limbs of patients that come in awake and talking. they bleed into the cavity (around lungs, in the sac around the heart, in the abdomen or pelvis) until the area is filled and then the bleeding slows way down as pressure builds in the cavity or cavities. Once the body cavity is opened to repair the hole or holes they bleed out quickly on the table until it is stopped or they die. Have seen holes in aorta, ivc, pericardium, lungs, bellies etc. survive and seen them not survive. just depends on exact location and how easy to get control of bleeding vs get blood transfusions in.

never seen round into cranium ( Bone around brain) talking and awake on arrival. happens but far less often I think. as they bleed into that cavity the pressure squishes the brain and the brain stops working pretty quick.

just my observations of those that survive to the operating room.
 

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Warning, graphic video embedded in the article.


"The story from WUSA says the man caused a couple of accidents by ramming other vehicles before the deputy arrived.

The incident happened around 8 a.m. Saturday. Montgomery County police received several 911 calls Saturday morning of a man driving erratically in the area. Police Chief Marcus Jones said two cars were struck by the driver before the deputy arrived on the scene.

When the deputy arrived, he saw the man approaching two people with a large wooden stick, according to Sheriff Darren Popkin. When the deputy intervened, the deputy and the man began fighting, and the man struck the deputy at least once with the piece of wood.

The deputy attempted to deploy his Taser, according to Popkin. When he wasn’t successful, the deputy shot the man, the sheriff said."


Warning, graphic video embedded in the article.


"The story from WUSA says the man caused a couple of accidents by ramming other vehicles before the deputy arrived.

The incident happened around 8 a.m. Saturday. Montgomery County police received several 911 calls Saturday morning of a man driving erratically in the area. Police Chief Marcus Jones said two cars were struck by the driver before the deputy arrived on the scene.

When the deputy arrived, he saw the man approaching two people with a large wooden stick, according to Sheriff Darren Popkin. When the deputy intervened, the deputy and the man began fighting, and the man struck the deputy at least once with the piece of wood.

The deputy attempted to deploy his Taser, according to Popkin. When he wasn’t successful, the deputy shot the man, the sheriff said."


Why is this debate continued month after month after month. This debate is endless.
let's move on...



 

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Why people discuss this particular thread really isn't your concern---is it? If YOU don't find it useful, helpful or of any interest don't read it. Leave people alone who are simply exercising their rights of expression and/or participating in an open forum.

I found the physiology of bullet strikes and real-world results---unless you've been there, done that asking a foolish question like "why?" doesn't help a thing.

Add something useful or just STFU maybe?
 
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