[ATCclears]

Warning, graphic video embedded in the article.


"The story from WUSA says the man caused a couple of accidents by ramming other vehicles before the deputy arrived.

The incident happened around 8 a.m. Saturday. Montgomery County police received several 911 calls Saturday morning of a man driving erratically in the area. Police Chief Marcus Jones said two cars were struck by the driver before the deputy arrived on the scene.

When the deputy arrived, he saw the man approaching two people with a large wooden stick, according to Sheriff Darren Popkin. When the deputy intervened, the deputy and the man began fighting, and the man struck the deputy at least once with the piece of wood.

The deputy attempted to deploy his Taser, according to Popkin. When he wasn’t successful, the deputy shot the man, the sheriff said."

VIDEO: Crazed Man Attacking Deputy Soaks Up 12 Rounds Before He's Stopped - The Truth About Guns

A crazed man’s rampage came to a not-so-sudden end Saturday morning in Montgomery County Maryland, and a bystander caught it all on video. After striking a lone deputy twice with a long stick, the attacker took a dozen rounds while still advancing on the officer. It looked like the stuff of...

www.thetruthaboutguns.com

 

[Acheron2010]

.45 and survive. Scary encounter.

 

[.45fan]

What, another example of why carrying a little .380 or .22 is a bad idea.

The video must be Photoshoped, the forum experts say that more than 3 shots is so rare you don't have to worry about it.




This stuff happens to non cops every week, which is why we train and carry real caliber/capacity guns.

 

[kyletx1911a1]

I'm not a professional but I truly understand the importance of shooting till they change shape or catch fire

 

[Jester560]

All I can say is....wow!!

Sent from my SM-G986U using Tapatalk

 

[Obscura]

If you want to stop a zombie, you've got to shoot'em in the head.

 

[scattershot redux]

DAYUM!! Anybody know if the professor was wearing body armor? You’d think 12 shots from that range would stop King Kong.

 

[Black Rifle Reviews]

A hit to the Brain Pan , Heart , Lungs, Throat , Spine would have ended it with one shot .

 

[HngnHunter]

Number 1 reason I’ve always doubted all those FBI tests and recommendations.

 

[Spike]

But but but couldn't he have just shot him in the leg?

 

[scattershot redux]

But but but couldn't he have just shot him in the leg?

 

[TSiWRX]

A hit to the Brain Pan , Heart , Lungs, Throat , Spine would have ended it with one shot .

Negative.

Outside of a "psychological stop" - which is subjective to the individual shot - objectively, either of these three highlighted vitals (in terms of the neck, yes, a shot severing or otherwise sufficiently damaging the spinal cord can cause immediate incapacitation, but given that you'd separated out brain and spine - the latter of which the anatomy affected depends on the height at which the column is damaged/severed - I am guessing that you're instead referring to trauma outside of the CNS) will require the passage of time for the individual to succumb to its physiologic fallout - be it a drop in blood pressure (i.e. holes in the heart or the severing of major blood vessels supplying the brain, heart, or lungs) or hindering oxygenation (organ injury to the lung, pneumothorax, or perforation of the upper airway passages).

There's a reason why the "failure drill" (or "Non Standard Response" - NSR, as the late Pat Rogers used to call it) is the "failure drill."

If you're trying to burn the threat down with a cadence of shots to the center mass (another question that the OP's video poses is the cadence at which the officer shot) and you see that it's not doing the trick, it's time to switch him/her off with a CNS shot (more on this, below). There's both physiologic reasons - as well as the possibility that the threat is somehow armored - why center-mass shots may not work, and even in Force-on-Force, instructors not infrequently cite the inability of students to transition to the head-shot, even when it is plainly necessary: that they'll literally end the scenario with all shots expended to center-mass.

.45 and survive. Scary encounter.

In the Gramins-Maddox shootout, that was a .45 ACP -

Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008

Officer Tim Gramins let loose with a barrage of rounds hoping that what he might lose in accuracy would be compensated for by its suppressive nature. The only thing separating Gramins and his assailant was a windshield that was fast disintegrating from ingoing and outgoing rounds.

www.policemag.com

From the article:

"There were 17 total hits on his body including three fatal shots to his head, a couple to his torso, and one to his abdomen," Gramins says. "Which means that even though Maddox was mortally wounded before the head shots, he was still able to engage me.

"People don't die the way we think they do," Gramins says. "I had 17 rounds in the guy. That will teach you how critical shot placement is."

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Sergeant Timothy Gramins faced a murderous attacker who would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition

www.police1.com

^ Shot placement is always king.

And to turn off the switch, one absolutely must engage and sufficiently damage the threat's central nervous system.

This is why training towards marksmanship always pays.

This is why any time a supposed "self-defense handgun instructor" says to you that those shots you've buckshot-sprayed - static, belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle at 7 yards on a flat range - onto a full-size silhouette target is a "good job," you'll want to ask him/her if he/she really thinks that's the case, or if you should actually be doing much better. If that "instructor" says "no," that the level of performance shown on that target means that you're prepared for the fight of your life, you should seek a different instructor/school.

Springfield XD Forum

www.xdtalk.com

and

Why Competition and "Bullseye" Shooting Will...

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid conversations on gun fora are when it comes to the difference between combat accuracy and competition "bullseye" shooting. Combat shooting is about placing EFFECTIVE hits on target, as much as necessary, to NEUTRALIZE the threat. What does "neutralize'...

www.xdtalk.com

^ With the above two threads as background, let's revisit that critical shot that I spoke of, above.

Let's take a step back and let's play this game with "center mass," first. Here, ostensibly, we're going for a fist-sized organ that's more or less high-center-chest.

What happens when the individual presents sideways, instead of as that belt-buckle-on-belt-buckle silhouette target that's the flat range?

What happens if that individual presents above you - say, he's an active shooter in a mall, on the story above or on the escalator above?

What happens if you managed to shoot that individual to the ground, but he's still in the fight?

Now think of how much more challenging it is to engage the "eyebox," which is the belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle presentation what is actually the CNS "kill zone" laying "behind" the individual's face. Why do we want to hit the "eyebox?" It's less because the "brainstem" is there, but more because that, from that belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle presentation, that is the least ARMORED part the anatomy that protects the brain. Perpendicular to that, from the side of the individual? The top of the ear represents a similar area of less bone density (and is also "flatter," as bullets tend to do weird things when they hit hard, curved surfaces: One To The Brain ). As that head dance and rotates around in space, shot placement becomes even more critical.

Oh, and getting back to that spinal cord shot "in the throat/neck"....the width of the spinal cord at that area is about that of your thumb or middle finger. Think that's an easy target?

 

[scattershot redux]

The professor didn’t even react for the first 7-8 shots. Misses, maybe? At any rate, glad the officer is OK.

 

[Mike51392]

Just watched the video(like 10times). Holy Jesus I'm impressed, just the muzzle blast from a pistol at that distance would make me hit the floor 🤣. So here I go, I gotta stir the pot. Where are all the hollow point guys at now? 😆 I'm sure that sheriff's carry hollow points. Don't hollowpoints expand 25 times ther diameter, tumble, create flesh hurricanes, and then explode ? 😂 crikey I give myself a pat on the back for that 1. I almost pissed myself just typing that.

 

[M1A4ME]

Does the article state the caliber? The rounds carried? The rounds that hit? Where the rounds hit (what organs, bones, other important parts of the human body)? Whether or not the man was on some type of drugs/medication?

If not, we can guess all day.

Two MOH citations I will always remember. Alvin York, WW1, eight shots from the 1911 he carried resulted in 8 German soldiers down and no longer a threat. Thomas Baker, WW2, eight shots from the 1911 he carried resulted in 8 Japanese soldiers down and no longer a threat. Neither citation lists where the enemy soldiers were hit but both citations seem to say being calm/cool under fire, using the right gun/ammo and hitting the right spot on the human body will get the job done. Minus any clear evidence of some type of drug use that seems to insulate the body from the brain in some way.

I carry a 9MM every day. Sixteen rounds in it, thirty-six more in the two spare mags. If I ever have to use it till the point it's empty, on one target, I'll be carrying something else the next day if I survive that.

That's frankenstein scary stuff right there.

 

[HngnHunter]

All of those that carry a 10mm for bear may also wish to evaluate their tactics.

 

[Black Rifle Reviews]

Negative.

Outside of a "psychological stop" - which is subjective to the individual shot - objectively, either of these three highlighted vitals (in terms of the neck, yes, a shot severing or otherwise sufficiently damaging the spinal cord can cause immediate incapacitation, but given that you'd separated out brain and spine - the latter of which the anatomy affected depends on the height at which the column is damaged/severed - I am guessing that you're instead referring to trauma outside of the CNS) will require the passage of time for the individual to succumb to its physiologic fallout - be it a drop in blood pressure (i.e. holes in the heart or the severing of major blood vessels supplying the brain, heart, or lungs) or hindering oxygenation (organ injury to the lung, pneumothorax, or perforation of the upper airway passages).

There's a reason why the "failure drill" (or "Non Standard Response" - NSR, as the late Pat Rogers used to call it) is the "failure drill."

If you're trying to burn the threat down with a cadence of shots to the center mass (another question that the OP's video poses is the cadence at which the officer shot) and you see that it's not doing the trick, it's time to switch him/her off with a CNS shot (more on this, below). There's both physiologic reasons - as well as the possibility that the threat is somehow armored - why center-mass shots may not work, and even in Force-on-Force, instructors not infrequently cite the inability of students to transition to the head-shot, even when it is plainly necessary: that they'll literally end the scenario with all shots expended to center-mass.



In the Gramins-Maddox shootout, that was a .45 ACP -

Shots Fired: Skokie, Illinois 08/25/2008

Officer Tim Gramins let loose with a barrage of rounds hoping that what he might lose in accuracy would be compensated for by its suppressive nature. The only thing separating Gramins and his assailant was a windshield that was fast disintegrating from ingoing and outgoing rounds.

www.policemag.com

From the article:

Why one cop carries 145 rounds of ammo on the job

Sergeant Timothy Gramins faced a murderous attacker who would not go down, even though he was shot 14 times with .45-cal. ammunition

www.police1.com

^ Shot placement is always king.

And to turn off the switch, one absolutely must engage and sufficiently damage the threat's central nervous system.

This is why training towards marksmanship always pays.

This is why any time a supposed "self-defense handgun instructor" says to you that those shots you've buckshot-sprayed - static, belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle at 7 yards on a flat range - onto a full-size silhouette target is a "good job," you'll want to ask him/her if he/she really thinks that's the case, or if you should actually be doing much better. If that "instructor" says "no," that the level of performance shown on that target means that you're prepared for the fight of your life, you should seek a different instructor/school.

Springfield XD Forum

www.xdtalk.com

and

Why Competition and "Bullseye" Shooting Will...

It never ceases to amaze me how stupid conversations on gun fora are when it comes to the difference between combat accuracy and competition "bullseye" shooting. Combat shooting is about placing EFFECTIVE hits on target, as much as necessary, to NEUTRALIZE the threat. What does "neutralize'...

www.xdtalk.com

^ With the above two threads as background, let's revisit that critical shot that I spoke of, above.

Let's take a step back and let's play this game with "center mass," first. Here, ostensibly, we're going for a fist-sized organ that's more or less high-center-chest.

What happens when the individual presents sideways, instead of as that belt-buckle-on-belt-buckle silhouette target that's the flat range?

What happens if that individual presents above you - say, he's an active shooter in a mall, on the story above or on the escalator above?

What happens if you managed to shoot that individual to the ground, but he's still in the fight?

Now think of how much more challenging it is to engage the "eyebox," which is the belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle presentation what is actually the CNS "kill zone" laying "behind" the individual's face. Why do we want to hit the "eyebox?" It's less because the "brainstem" is there, but more because that, from that belt-buckle-to-belt-buckle presentation, that is the least ARMORED part the anatom y that protects the brain. Perpendicular to that, from the side of the individual? The top of the ear represents a similar area of less bone density (and is also "flatter," as bullets tend to do weird things when they hit hard, curved surfaces: One To The Brain ). As that head dance and rotates around in space, shot placement becomes even more critical.

Oh, and getting back to that spinal cord shot "in the throat/neck"....the width of the spinal cord at that area is about that of your thumb or middle finger. Think that's an easy target?

Even if a round hits the throat and passes by the Spine the shock wave and temporary stretch cavity will disrupt motor nerves of the central nervous system and oxygen supply will be cut off and disruption of two major arteries feeding the brain would most likely cause unconscious or temporary unconscious giving you time to place another well aimed shot before the assailant could react. Nothing is a death ray unless you hit the organ that will turn off motor skills Heart , Lungs feed the brain with Blood & Oxygen cut off one or both the victim will become unconscious this is why Head Neck Torso are critical to survival it may require multiple hits in these areas . People should study anatomy and know where these organs are and how they work and what happens if one is disrupted. Shot Placement is the Key not caliber .

 

[Powerman]

Even if a round hits the throat and passes by the Spine the shock wave and temporary stretch cavity will disrupt motor nerves of the central nervous system and oxygen supply will be cut off and disruption of two major arteries feeding the brain .

Which still does not matter.

First, there is no hydrostatic shock with pistol rounds and strech cavity means nothing. It means tissues strech.... With no damage.

There is no way to say with any certainty what will happen when a bullet enters a body. People have been shot in the head with no ill effect. One medical show had a guy shot 17 times with 9mm...nothing vital was hit. The FBI has studied it.... A shot straight to the heart leaves the target with 8 useful seconds of consciousness. Now watch the video, and count 8 seconds.

Bottom line is the highest percentage shot is centermass, and you keep shooting until the threat stops. That is what we know.

 

[Black Rifle Reviews]

Does the article state the caliber? The rounds carried? The rounds that hit? Where the rounds hit (what organs, bones, other important parts of the human body)? Whether or not the man was on some type of drugs/medication?

If not, we can guess all day.

Two MOH citations I will always remember. Alvin York, WW1, eight shots from the 1911 he carried resulted in 8 German soldiers down and no longer a threat. Thomas Baker, WW2, eight shots from the 1911 he carried resulted in 8 Japanese soldiers down and no longer a threat. Neither citation lists where the enemy soldiers were hit but both citations seem to say being calm/cool under fire, using the right gun/ammo and hitting the right spot on the human body will get the job done. Minus any clear evidence of some type of drug use that seems to insulate the body from the brain in some way.

I carry a 9MM every day. Sixteen rounds in it, thirty-six more in the two spare mags. If I ever have to use it till the point it's empty, on one target, I'll be carrying something else the next day if I survive that.
they survived
That's frankenstein scary stuff right there.

I served in the Infantry in 3 conflicts I shot an enemy soldier in the early 70's with a 1911 .45 form about 5 meters fire once hit him center mass he fell dead on his face , Fast Forward 20 years I opened a door had my M24 Rifle slung across my back my spotter behind me We confronted an enemy soldier at 10 meters from me he was loading an RPG I drew fired he hit the ground face first the 9mm round when thru his spine severing it the round past thru the bottom of his heart the enemy RPG gunner was DRT Dead right there. I seen many people who were shot some it was hard to believe they survived and I seen a guy with a minor wound die of shock.

 

[TSiWRX]

^ So, here's the thing - anecdotally, anything can and will happen.

Those 17 rounds landed in the Maddox-Gramins shoot-out? Some of them should have been fatal, and yet, the fight continued.

Even if a round hits the throat and passes by the Spine the shock wave and temporary stretch cavity will disrupt motor nerves of the central nervous system and oxygen supply will be cut off and disruption of two major arteries feeding the brain would most likely cause unconscious or temporary unconscious giving you time to place another well aimed shot before the assailant could react. Nothing is a death ray unless you hit the organ that will turn off motor skills Heart , Lungs feed the brain with Blood & Oxygen cut off one or both the victim will become unconscious this is why Head Neck Torso are critical to survival it may require multiple hits in these areas . People should study anatomy and know where these organs are and how they work and what happens if one is disrupted. Shot Placement is the Key not caliber .

^ And that's precisely it.

All of the other scenarios you posed are not "dead right there" - they are, in much the same way as the Gramins-Maddox tale unfolded, certain fatal wounds that simply required the passage of time for it to actually manifest. In the words of the late Pat Rogers, "Just because you shot 'em doesn't mean you've hurt 'em. Just because you've hurt 'em doesn't mean you've killed 'em. Just because you've killed 'em doesn't mean that they're dead-right-there."

Believe me, I know and understand well why anatomy is important. My background in medicine as well as my interest in this aspect of armed self-defense is exactly the reason why I also believe in shot-placement - not caliber - and why I have repeatedly authored the same posts in this vein, which, in addition to the two that I cited above, include also:

If HEADSHOTS kill INSTANTLY, why all the THRASHING around?!?

I saw this video and thought it would be good to share. Not only is it good general information, but it's also good for answering those pesky questions from your non-hunting friends and family. The person that made the video went to a university professor in the Neurology Dept. at the...

www.xdtalk.com

^
And -

Incapacitation theory: Hollywood vs reality.

FUNKERTACTICAL Tactical Videos Photos Incapacitation Theory Hollywood Vs Reality Graphic It seems I've been seeing a lot of videos lately of shootings and people being shot and continuing to fight. These aren't the best videos but it brings up the point that shooting someone is not going to...

www.xdtalk.com

^ specifically in this second thread, I want to point out that I cited the shootout involving Stacy Lim: her heart was perforated by her assailant's rounds and she "died on the table," yet the heroic efforts of the medical team that treated her literally brought her back.

I'm glad that the round you had shot at the enemy transected his spine and took him down right then and there: however, the fact that your shot to the throat managed that does not equate to all shots to the throat having the same effect. [ And as for the debated "hydrostatic shock," I'm with @Powerman in that it simply does not happen with common defensive/duty handgun calibers. To-wit: then-officer Jared Reston was shot in the head/neck, with exit wounds on his neck/chin - he not only survived, but engaged in an active gunfight with the criminal who shot him, after taking that initial hit. Shot placement absolutely matters in the most objective sense possible, and for you to at once insist that shot placement is king while at the same time suggest that any shot to the "heart, lungs, throat" to be instantaneously fatal is just as objectively problematic, without framing each in its proper context. ]

Similarly, I'm also very glad that the center-mass shot you delivered to the other enemy combatant also happened to immediately kill him. But again, this does not mean that all shots - particularly single shots - center-mass will do the same.

Objectively, shots to the previously highlighted "heart, lungs, throat" [yet again with the "throat" carrying the very caveat as what transpired in your combat kill - that a shot severing or otherwise sufficiently damaging the spinal cord can cause immediate incapacitation: however, given that you'd separated out brain and spine, the latter of which the anatomy affected depends on the height at which the column is damaged/severed, this would then only apply to trauma outside of the CNS, and thus) will require the passage of time for the individual to succumb to its physiologic fallout - be it a drop in blood pressure (i.e. holes in the heart or the severing of major blood vessels supplying the brain, heart, or lungs) or hindering oxygenation (organ injury to the lung, pneumothorax, or perforation of the upper airway passages).

This is what the anatomy and physiology demands, objectively, of shots to these areas.