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I keep forgetting I've got a Vortex Sparc AR laying around that needs a home...thinking one of these might be just the ticket for a red dot optic that is fairly annoying to turn on and auto turns itself off...

Probably this one.

https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/5257/s%26w+m%26p15+22+sport+22lr+16+collapsible+stock+25%2b1[URL="https://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/product_info.php/products_id/5257/s%26w+m%26p15+22+sport+22lr+16+collapsible+stock+25%2b1"]S&W M&P15 22 Sport .22LR 16 Collapsible Stock 25+1[/URL]

That stock and pistol grip will have to go though. I think I've actually got a spare black MOE grip hanging around somewhere...
 

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I’ve got the performance center version, it’s a blast. Quite accurate and mine has literally never once jammed or failed to cycle fully. 100% of the time when there’s bullets in it and I pull the trigger it goes bang. It’s a nice gun to have around for when you take stuff off your AR and want a home for the parts.

Nice trigger too.

Buy it. They’ve come way down in price and really they’re a lot of fun and very accurate.
 

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The 15-22 is a blast.

Just be sure that if you're getting one on the secondary market especially that you check the bolt face ( M&P15-22 Consumer Safety Alert | Smith & Wesson ).

Not sure if this is what contributed to at least some of the (admittedly few) malfunctions which caused the 15-22 to be banned from Appleseed events or if that was more politically motivated (Appleseed/Tippmann), but regardless, it's worth checking out.

My daughter's has been great since we replaced the extractor with the Volquartsen Exact Edge unit and I played a bit with the ejector. It still doesn't have centerfire reliability, but it's about as good as anyone can ask for for a rimfire autofeeder, I think.

Aside from being tremendous fun for experienced shooters and a valid sub-caliber cross-trainer, it's an absolutely great way to introduce newer shooters to the AR platform.
 

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Probably the most fun gun I have. As Snap said, they eat ammo like no other (I have had issues with Remington Golden Bullets, but even the owner's manual says not to use them). Perfect host for a nice red dot.

That said, I hardly ever shoot mine anymore. I keep telling myself before every range trip "I should take the .22", but then I start loading up everything else, and don't want to pack another gun, mags, ammo. So it sits in the safe. One of these days, I'll do a dedicated 15-22 range trip.

64dab5787332dbd4d8fc17fd31dab168.jpg
 

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I just have a dedicated 22 upper, CMMG older version that was bought new at a good deal.

I like the idea of the M&P 15-22, but don't like the dedicated lower aspect. If you want to use the 15-22 mags (which a lot of people think is superior to the BDM, I don't have any issues with the non-CMMG BDM mags), there's options for that without a plastic lower.

The 15-22 IS lighter than my setup, but my 5 year old has no problem shooting it from a bag, and my 9 year old can fire it off-hand. And I can put the upper on any of the 4 lowers I currently have built with all the different trigger and stock options that entails.
 

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I really like mine. At the time I picked it up it was about the same cost as a dedicated .22LR upper.
 

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Absolutely, I have one of the pre recall ones, and had an out of battery detonation, blew the extractor off. But it's been flawless since coming back from warranty. I've got over 10k through mine, and it keeps on chugging.
 

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I really like mine. At the time I picked it up it was about the same cost as a dedicated .22LR upper.
Same, but since I had a stack of lowers with no immediate plans, made more sense for me to go the dedicated upper route.

PSA has a 16" 22 upper with 13.5 freefloat surprisingly in stock right now.

My upper has the nitride BCG that took a TON of polishing to be reliable, but I don't think anyone makes anything other than stainless now, which is a good thing.
 

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The 15-22 is a blast.

Just be sure that if you're getting one on the secondary market especially that you check the bolt face ( M&P15-22 Consumer Safety Alert | Smith & Wesson ).

Not sure if this is what contributed to at least some of the (admittedly few) malfunctions which caused the 15-22 to be banned from Appleseed events or if that was more politically motivated (Appleseed/Tippmann), but regardless, it's worth checking out.

My daughter's has been great since we replaced the extractor with the Volquartsen Exact Edge unit and I played a bit with the ejector. It still doesn't have centerfire reliability, but it's about as good as anyone can ask for for a rimfire autofeeder, I think.

Aside from being tremendous fun for experienced shooters and a valid sub-caliber cross-trainer, it's an absolutely great way to introduce newer shooters to the AR platform.
I've had a 15-22 for 7-8 years now and never had any issues...have close to 10K rounds fired. On the S&W 15-22 forum, the thread about the bolt face issue has over 200 responses and 11,000 view. No one seems to have seen15-22 rifles with a incorrectly cut bolt face...

There were long, contentious discussions about the Appleseed issue. It really appears to me to be a political issue.
 

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What does this have to do with need?

You have one less M&P15-22 than necessary.

Yet another disclaimer: I won one in a club raffle about five years ago. Because I already had five .22 rifles and limited space, the club bought it back from me at cost and put it back in the raffle. Yes, my club is pretty nice.
 

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I've had a 15-22 for 7-8 years now and never had any issues...have close to 10K rounds fired.
Mine is less than half age/round-count, and I also have never seen an OOB detonation. I am also not one who religiously clean my shooters, either: our 15-22 was truly only cleaned when I swapped out the extractor and then again when I checked the bolt face tolerance.

On the S&W 15-22 forum, the thread about the bolt face issue has over 200 responses and 11,000 view. No one seems to have seen15-22 rifles with a incorrectly cut bolt face...
I think it's telling that S&W decided on a "consumer safety alert," rather than a recall.

There were long, contentious discussions about the Appleseed issue. It really appears to me to be a political issue.
It's really a shame that our young shooters has to suffer the fallout of such pettiness.


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I like the idea of the M&P 15-22, but don't like the dedicated lower aspect.
Excellent point.

Another is that despite some pretty awesome deals on the 15-22 recently, it's still definitely not the most frugal way to go about the dedicated .22LR cross-trainer, given today's market for a piecemeal AR build.

The 15-22 IS lighter than my setup, but my 5 year old has no problem shooting it from a bag, and my 9 year old can fire it off-hand. And I can put the upper on any of the 4 lowers I currently have built with all the different trigger and stock options that entails.
The weight really is pretty telling, though - I saw the same "growth curve" with my daughter as well. We ended up putting together a semi-lightweight (full-mass BCG, etc. - I wanted this to be durable enough for her to really train with) full-caliber AR for her a couple of years ago. I wonder if a poly lower and maybe a CF handguard can help make up the difference?
 

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The weight really is pretty telling, though - I saw the same "growth curve" with my daughter as well. We ended up putting together a semi-lightweight (full-mass BCG, etc. - I wanted this to be durable enough for her to really train with) full-caliber AR for her a couple of years ago. I wonder if a poly lower and maybe a CF handguard can help make up the difference?
I think I detailed the changes I made to my 22 upper in another thread, but what I've found with my kids is that the total weight isn't as much an issue as the front weight.

The CMMG upper I started with was an older version with phosphate/nitrided bolt, strike industries 2 piece hand guard, and a STEEL railed faux gas block. I thought maybe it was aluminum, but it sticks a magnet, just a really low grade steel, that luckily isn't drilled for a gas tube, so no worries about accidentally putting it on a centerfire build.

Anyway, I put literally the cheapest chinesium 12" free float I could find from a gunshow on in it's place to aid in accuracy from a bag, and aside from the shimming and alignment struggles, it went on fine. Telling though, if it did drop the weight of the upper, it wasn't much, but it did bring the balance point to the rear a considerable amount, around 3" rearward if I recall. Instead of the balance point being just forward of the magwell, it now balances at the front portion of the trigger guard. That bit of movement in the CG was the difference between my oldest struggling to level the muzzle and being relatively comfortable holding the rifle.

Of course overall weight does factor in, so he's not able to get through a 25rd mag without taking a break, but he is able to shoot it off-hand on target. Since that setup is mostly for teaching the fundamentals about hitting the target, both boys prefer to shoot off a bag currently.

We had a family shoot on Father's day, and both boys really enjoyed their uncle's light barrel wood stocked 10/22 with a scope. Overall weight about the same as the 22AR, but the balance point was even further back toward the shoulder pocket, so from a bag, both boys seemed to struggle less with getting stable on target. Of course, the oldest did comment about liking the trigger more, so maybe being a trigger snob (such as myself) is hereditary?

Anyway, for a kid, I wouldn't focus AS MUCH on overall weight as I would getting that balance point closer to their torso for freehand practice, so for your example, I'd skip the poly lower, and if you want to drop the money, a CF handguard, and maybe a slightly heavier carbine stock would likely do it (like going from a mil stock to a CTR). On my 22AR setup, the buttstock is a Trinity Force Alpha (cheap was the name of the game getting this thing on the line), which is a decent stock, other than the new-from-box smell of the overmolding. Without weighing it though, I'd judge it to be a tiny bit lighter than a CTR, but heavier than a MFT. My wife's rig has an STR on it, and it brings the balance back another inch or so with the 22 upper on it, but my kids don't like the cheek area being bigger than the side of their face and the struggle to get lined up on center that goes with it.

For the lulz, I have shot the 22 upper on my rig with a UBR, and it's pretty well a one-handed setup for me, lol, balance pretty much at the pistol grip. The rear weight (and overall weight) with this arrangement finally hit the tipping point with my kids though, complaining about having to handle the weight while front supported on a bag.

Both of my kids are able to balance my M1 Carbine off-hand with 2 full mags in the stock pouch, but neither have fired it.

For the original question of this topic, I think the answer is pretty clear, between getting a 15-22 in your life, and the second presented option of spending the same amount on a dedicated upper: get both, and teach kids.
 

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^ Yup, I think I remember the two of us (and other members) talking about that. :)

And I'm definitely on board with your train of thought: that forward weight is the biggest/bigger problem.
 

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^ Sorry, had to do something else at the time and had to bail out of my reply. :oops: I didn't mean to be incomplete. :)

With my daughter, I had the same focus on her full-caliber AR - I was cognizant of the fact that forward-weight was the real killer, and so I wanted to have as little of it as possible, while still meeting my budget as well as my usage/durability requirements. I ended up with a 14.5-inch middy BCM ELW-F profile barrel, pairing that with a 13" KMR-A (I searched high and low for a KMR, but couldn't find one; debated going down one more length for the handguard to recover that lost ounce, but she's one of those kids/girls/women who happen to be all gangly arms:p). Went lighter for the barrel device, too, with a V6G Epsilon/CAGE pairing.

With the bolt forward, the balance point is on the inner aspect of the front of the magwell, just aft of the forward pin. When she shoulders the gun, she's at T30-38 with her support hand, and she's comfortable holding that for head-shots at the 100, unsupported.

Anyway, for a kid, I wouldn't focus AS MUCH on overall weight as I would getting that balance point closer to their torso for freehand practice.....
Heck, I do that even for me. :p:D

... but my kids don't like the cheek area being bigger than the side of their face and the struggle to get lined up on center that goes with it.
This is me as well. I went from really liking the SOPMOD and SOPMOD-style stocks to swapping over to slimmer stocks. I have a chubby face, and I find that I have to work more to get a good cheek-weld (although it is a more comfortable cheek-weld) with the wider stocks.

And similar to your experience, I played with the weight/balance in configuring my guns, too.

For the lulz, I have shot the 22 upper on my rig with a UBR, and it's pretty well a one-handed setup for me, lol, balance pretty much at the pistol grip. The rear weight (and overall weight) with this arrangement finally hit the tipping point with my kids though, complaining about having to handle the weight while front supported on a bag.


:p

For the original question of this topic, I think the answer is pretty clear, between getting a 15-22 in your life, and the second presented option of spending the same amount on a dedicated upper: get both, and teach kids.
Absolutely!
 

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Own Performance C, also have it suppressed, it's very accurate, great trigger. I use CCI standard velocity ammo, suppressed only thing I hear is the bolt. Do shot other ammo through it, unsuppressed, and it will eat any 22LR, that I feed it. Had couple dude 22 rds, that didn't fire, but not the rifles fault. Tried them in another 22 same result. I really enjoy shooting it suppressed loses no accuracy, suppressed
 

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Yea, for $300 you kinda do need one:) .22 is cheap and easy to come by these days, so stocking up and having a fun range trainer is an easy sell. Honestly, I'm tired of taking friends shooting and having to give away boxes of .556 so they can try one of my ARs.
 

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I bought one when price of .223 ammo was high, and just about the time that .22lr got scarce... ( crap!!!! ) ..... but had built up a good supply. My .22 isn't 100% built exactly the same as my full size AR, but close enough for function training. Red dot, single point sling, etc, etc.....

I have had some ammo problems, but usually the most extremely cheap bulk .22 out there... and it is obviously ammo trouble not the gun. (bullet bent wrong in the case, etc).... my Ruger 10/22 has just as many failures to fire I think... (which is minimal).

For just a great time plinking at the range, or for actual defensive training on a minimal budget, it's awesome!! Mags can be found pretty cheap from time to time also. As soon as I can find a decent range again, I'll need to take mine out for a "play date" again.
 
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