[dub-N-tek]

I am in the automotive aftermarket world for a living and for longevety we cryo-treat most everything.

I am new to the fourm and and the XD--40 I just bought.
In the first 2000 rounds I put through it I developed a problem with my
guide rod. I have since called SA and have a new one on the way, and also I will be ordering an upgraded rod and spring combo.

After I get the upgrades I was thinking of having the entire gun treated.

This process creates great strength increases in bolth tensil and compression of ANY material.

Have any of you heard of any one cryo-treating a gun?
This is just a thought I had to increase the XD's relighablity.

PLEASE telll me what you think of this idea
good...bad...otherwise
THANKS
Jp.

 

[cvann]

I know most high end barrel manufacturers cryo-treat....not sure about slides and frames though....

 

[Bob Hostetter]

I am not aware of any barrel manufacturers that cyro treat their barrels as a standard practice. There are several rifle barrel manufacturers that offer cyro treatments as an option.

Pistol barrels as a general rule do not respond to cyro treatments in a measurable way. There maybe an increase in strength but if the barrel is made from a quality material to start with the is no advantage to counterbalance the cost. We use heat treated 416 stainless and in testing found no advantages in strength or accuracy as a result of cyro treating a pistol barrel.

Rifle barrels will sometimes show an increase in repeatable accuracy after cryo treating. This is believed to be the result of more uniform grain structure in the metal producing more uniform harmonic flexing when the bullet is still in the barrel. Properly fluting the barrel will also show this accuracy improvement. Because of the relative short length of a pistol barrel the benefits rarely are measurable.

Cyro treatment of the slide of a pistol is questionable. The main emeny's of a slide are wear and shock. Wear is best reduced by treatment's such as heat treating or the application of a surface treatment such as hard chrome. Shock normally shows its self in the slide cracking and this is usually the result of having to much hardness in the material. You might gain a little with cyro treating the slide because it would allow you to go to a softer metal but properly heat treated 4140 has been proven over the years to very durable in firearms as long as it is not heat treated to high.

The bottom line in pistols is that while cyro treating a barrel and slide will probably result in no benefits, the only harm it will cause is to your wallet...

 

[dub-N-tek]

I am not talking so much about the barel or the slide.
(yes these would be done too) but I was refering to the assembly as a group. meaning the entire gun.

I mean it can't hurt right?

If I have had an issue within the first 2K rounds what else inside may be becomming worn that I can't see?
I am no gun pro!! to say the least.. this is my first hand gun and I was just thinking that for a total of $70 for the entire thing I could enshure a bit more longevity out of this unit!

I will be doing a bit of research on what the effects of cryo after heat treating would bring to the table. after reading Hostetter's post I am assuming this is the process SA uses during it's manfacturing of the XD.
can anyone confire this??
THANKS for the help all.
Jp.

 

[Bob Hostetter]

There is no down side to cyro treating any part of, or the complete pistol that I am aware of.

Cyro treatments are usually done after the manufacturing process is complete so the cyro would follow the heat treating.

Springfield does not manufacture the XD, they import it......

 

[dub-N-tek]

does the actual manfacture heat treat the units before shipping?

Who actually makes the XD??
I know that it says croatia on it but I just thought that is the country.

but what do I know??

 

[Bob Hostetter]

They are manufactured in Croatia, by what company I am not sure. They are then shipped to Springfield where they are marketed in the USA.

They slides and various parts are heat treated by the factory during the manufacturing process, either before or after machining, and before the finish is applied.

 

[Don]

This may be a stretch but only downside I could think of for cryo treating would be if the pistol is new then the trigger feel may take longer it burnish itself in and feel good. If the barrel was rough it may take longer to smooth out also.

I did a backyard experiment with cryo treating the cam and followers for a VW type IV engine. It was a bad mix that got me less than 80 miles before I had to have my 13 year old daughter push me out of the road and into a parking lot. That kind of high pressure rotating/grinding doesn't happen in a firearm, so no worries of that kind of experience for guns. It certainly was an education for me and my daughter. I learned a bit about hardness and my daughter learned a whole new vocabulary that she can't ( or better not) take home to mom.

 

[dub-N-tek]

that is the FIRST bad for cryo and a VW engine!!!
I am a VW tech and run my own preformance shop to boot!

The gun should be somewhat broken in after 2K rounds no?


The trigger feel has NOT changed from the day I bought it NEW, is this a problem, or did I not notice it due to the fact I was changing along with the feel?

I think I am going to ship it to my cryo guy and give it a try..

 

[Don]

They were reground lifters and a brand new Web camshaft.
The lifters were the likely culprit.
I spent a lot of time on that engine. The rods and pistons I balanced to some absurd degree just because I could, and ported the head (no enlarging, just smoothed everything in the flow path). The valves I chucked in a lathe and with stones hand radiused the edges, but left the contact areas flat. I think the bulk of the engine is still good, but it will need a tedious cleaning to get the metal out of all the oil passageways. I hope the valve guides are good, it was a quick death so I think they will be.

 

[dub-N-tek]

guides are CHEEP!!

yes a GOOD flushing or better yet a complete dismantel and inspection!

as for porting of head the exhaust side should be smooth as glass
but the intake side, well that is a diffrent story! the outside of a curve should be relativly smooth but the inside radius should have some minor surface imprefections to promote "swril" these swirls make a "lower" vaccume are that pulls air faster then just the pumping forces of the pistons actions do! make sence??

don I have been reading many many good things about your products.
do you have any "treating process" that you do to your products before they are complete?

and I know I saw the thread with the "attatchment" threading of the guide rod, do you sell those? doesn't seam like it buy that thread and I don't think that you sell direct do you? If so then can you tell me what I need to do to get one PLEASE!!

 

[Don]

Guides are cheap but most likely I would need the the valves ground and I am cheap.
None of the port were glass smooth, just 120 grit smooth. I understand some about laminar flow and turbulance. The geek part in me loves that stuff. The inner radius I just knocked the sharp edge off and didn't worry much about it. A big part was smoothing out that bolster that the guides poke out of. There was some shrouding on the valves that I got rid of. I don't have a good history of not nicking the seats when I do this so I made a set of dummy valves ground down to the seat level so the I can work with a die grinder and not worry about screwing it up. If you are doing this kind of stuff in your shop it lets you work quicker without the risk of screwing up the seats.
The heads had the ports for the smog pump which are right on that outer curve, so I made long aluminum plugs with 1/8NPT and then tapped the holes, then screwed the plugs in until they seized and ground them off to create a smooth surface again. It worked real well since I did not want to have them welded.
It will definately need a full dismantle, no way to get the nasty oil out of the bearings and rings etc. They oil looks both clean and filled with iron powder.

I don't treat anything, as the forces on the rod itself are minimal. The bronze I use in the washers is CDA936 good link to why. I have not noticed much wear on any of my rods, and if that was a concern the Delrin washers should lest your fears rest.

The threaded rod was on a whim and request. I can do this kind of custom sales direct like I do my tungsten rods. Email me for specifics.

 

[dub-N-tek]

Well I DID it!!
Just got it back yesterday!
went to the range today!!
EVERYTHING "seams" to be a bit tighter..
slide and trigger pull but it fired like a CHAMP!

Like some of the others said.. it may just take a bit longer to "brake in" if this process is done before some rounds go down the throat.
I had roughly 2500 through before having this done so I figured it was as broken in as it is going to get!

I would post pics but it looks exactly the same!
PM me if you need a contact for this work.

Jp.

 

[DanaT]

I am not a big proponent of cryo treating unless you have retained austenite that you want to convert to martensite.

I have had many arguements about this and it normally comes from uninformed people or people trying to sell snake oil.

If you don't understand my first sentence then we can't even have a discussion on the matter.

But go ahead. Buy snake oil. Its your money.

-Dana

 

[Don]

If the snake oil is cheap enough, then I am buying.
Beer makes women more tolerable, so I buy that. I don't really care if women really become more tolerable, they just seem that way to me. :shock:


:wink:

 

[ChevyBlazerGuy]

My fathers company used to send out all of their stuff for cryo-treatment , last year they decided to purchase their own cryo equipment and my dad was trained to operate and maintain it. So far I have cryo-treated all my tools and drill bits. He keeps offering to cryo-treat my guns but I haven't taken him up on the offer. Since it is FREE for me I think I should give it a try.

 

[dub-N-tek]

I am not a big proponent of cryo treating unless you have retained austenite that you want to convert to martensite.

If you don't understand my first sentence then we can't even have a discussion on the matter.

-Dana

I do understand what you mean buy that!
I have taken MANY classes on metalergy, that does mean a ton of info
on molecular structure and bonding of diffrent compounds and their ony inhearent properties.

I do NOT want this to become an argument.
I will however entertain quality discussions!!

The reason for me doing this was pure longeativity(sp?)
Does it add a bit of structural ingtegraty?? I think so!

like I said I think that the XD is fine the way it is!, but I thought it wouldn't hurt AND i have done some of my own research on cryo-ed metals for their abality to resist rust and it seams that it adds to the metals abality to withstand against it!

thoes were my reasons.

Lets make this informative if possible!

Jp.

 

[DanaT]

I will try to keep this as simple as possible yet it will have some jargon thrown in.

As far as "rust" goes, I assume you solely speaking on the issue of the formation of iron oxides (there are many different forms). What you will find is that this is a redox reaction. Heat treating steels and irons, of any sort, does not appreciably affect the chemical reaction rate. What does affect the chemical reaction is alloying and the subsequent protective layer on the metal. For example, Titanium is known to be very corrosion resistant. However, the reason why it is so resistant, is because it is VERY reactive. It reacts so fast and readily with just air, that a TiO2 boundary layer is formed.

As far as favorable properties go, ANY change in material structure is a compromise. In steels, martensite is very hard, but brittle. Cryo treating CAN help some steel alloys, depending upon its alloying elements.

You can take one of many equations that are used to predict the martensite formation temperatures however, we will look at just one, the Steven and Haynes Equation.

Ms (Degrees C) = 561 - 474C - 33Mn - 17Cr - 17Ni - 21Mo

Therefore, before you have something cryo treated, you should probably know what is in the material.

As when I have had these discussions with people (i.e. brake rotor manufactures where I was accused of hurting their business with facts and not rumor) I will make the challenge. Please show me one peer-reviewed technical paper (i.e. not a website with someone’s opinion) that has actual proof (i.e. photo micrographs) of changes that have occurred to the materials (with the exception of retained austenite being transformed in martensite which I have stated that cryo treating works on). So far, whenever this challenge is brought up the snake oil peddlers run and hide.

That said, I have personally seen some initial proof of cryo treating working. However, this was for a very unusual alloy that I doubt many people use.

Typically, what people have is anecdotal "proof". They will say thing like "before I had my rifle barrel cryo treated I could only shoot 2 inch groups. Now I shoot 1/4 inch groups". Anecdotal proof is no proof at all unless you have some independent testing proof.

I will not challenge your education in metallurgy. I am sure you are quite knowledgeable from those classes.

-Dana

 

[dub-N-tek]

As far as rust goes yes IRON Oxides only!
I should have said that I have taken a sample of mild steel and cut into two. one half was cryoed and the other was not. Bolth have been outside now for about 2 and a half years. The non-treated half COVERED in rust the treated half very slight surface and that is it!


NOW as far as proff goes!!!
I would LOVE to be able to get you some 8-10K close-up's from school but I no longer attend. I do have a buddy that is still there but they REALLY frown uppon ANY firearms components on school properties.
I would have to do a side by side test of a treated XD barrrell and nontreated XD barrell, to get any usable info from this.. I only have the treated one now.

NOW as you said Anecdotal proof!!
That I do have! LOL
As far as cryotreating in the gun world I have yet to see anyone else that has done this on any large scale.
In my current line of work I deal with turbocharger R&D.
On MANY ocations or treated turbos will run 6-7 times the distance and at 1/2 again the temp. and still when dissassemblied they look much better visiually then the nontreated. For now I have NO proof that one is better then the other because the longgevativity test is still in progress.

Now I know that these are diffrent applications but untill these tests are over, I HAVE NO PROOF for you one way or the other..
The only thing that I can offer to you is the "sales pitch" that I recived from the processing facality.

Jp.

 

[DanaT]

Just on a side note, how does cryo treating a turbo charger change the thermal properties of the metal.

I mean to run a turbo at half the temperature, that would be amazing.

I have a ceramic coated turbo to help reduce heat transfer but even that doesn't do much.

As far as turbo life goes, you can't really compare two vehilces. I can show you vehicles that the turbo goes through hell everytime they are driven. One day for these cars is like 2 years of wear on a normal car.

I will give you an example. On my bike, I got 6000miles out of the stock rear tire. When I had it replaced, the dealer couldn't believe it. They hadn't seen a tire last over 2000 miles. Was a difference in the tire or was it a difference on how I drive?

If you run a turbo at 12psi it will last much different than at 25psi. Drag racing is different than road racing.

-Dana