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I am 82 and I think in emergencies like this, when choices need to be made, it is survival of the fittest. Think of it like this, you and your son both have the virus, and there is only 1 ventilator available, who are you going to chose to get it?
 

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I think the face mask thingy is a false sense of security.
Yes it contains your breath etc but the micro filtration is far to large to stop these lil guys.

Still IMO safer to stay away from others by 6 or more ft.

My 02. YMMV.
Highlighted for-emphasis - as that's definitely correct. :) That video that @Gigantore cited -

Check this out. Watch the whole video. Very interesting.

Deepa Godghate
^ is a really good watch. It actually takes me back to the toilet-plume incident in Hong Kong, during the SARS outbreak years ago (Toilet Flush May Have Spread SARS), and yes, SARS-CoV-2, just like its predecessor which caused the SARS outbreak in the early 2000s (SARS-CoV) can also be transmitted in a fecal-oral manner: infected feces show a relatively high viral load.

Anyway......

In light of what that video shows, that's how we should re-frame our thinking on masks: and I think that the powers-that-be really made a mistake in not explaining better (and with more emphasis) the reasoning of having everyone masking up.

It's not about protecting *you* directly. ;)

Just as you noted, the porosity of common materials (DIY Face Mask Filter Materials: What to Use, What to Avoid - Jennifer Maker) means that such non-N95 masks are likely still going to render the wearer vulnerable to infection via inhalation.

However, that's not what this is necessarily about.

What "masking everyone" is about is an attempt to try to mitigate the amount of damage that asymptomatic infected individuals can do. We've known that SARS-CoV-2 infected individuals can shed virus significantly in the days prior to becoming sufficiently symptomatic that they'll realize to self-isolate. Given the virulence of SARS-CoV-2, this means that it's possible for them to have shed virus on "common" surfaces unknowingly.

Masking anyone who is even potentially a carrier - i.e. everyone - is thus a way to mitigate this aspect of the problem.

Think about medical practices even before the COVID-19 pandemic (and which continues today), when during the height of flu season, the sick are asked to mask-up when they enter the doctors' office or clinics. It's the same idea. That mask is used as a primary way of reducing their likelihood of infecting others.

So, you're absolutely correct, @Texas40 - it's a bit of false security, but it's not quite in the manner that you and most of the public have perceived that to be, and I hope this helps clarify things a bit. :)

Now, that said, there are two additional route of danger that "masking everyone" can also create via this false security: face-touching and improper mask handling.

Most of us are not used to wearing a mask on our face, and it creates a level of discomfort and annoyance that we then feel compelled to rectify. This, of-course, brings our hands dangerously close to our eyes, nose, and mouth.

Similarly, even if we were careful to adjust the mask and relieve discomfort by only touching the mask's outer surface, we've now contaminated the mask with that touch. And truthfully, even without touching the mask, its outer surface can still potentially be riddled with viable virus particles. We currently think that SARS-CoV-2 remains viable on cloth for up to 24 hours (and shockingly on the materials that "medical" masks are made out of for possibly up to even a week!!!! to-note, this is why at the beginning of the outbreak, when medical staff were facing critical N95 shortages, they were advised to seal their rationed masks in plastic baggies or Tupperware containers labled with the day-of-week of use, and to recycle on a 7-day minium basis), so we also need to take care in our procedures in taking off the mask.
 

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Discussion Starter #404
WSJ article from April 6, 2020

Snippet:

The coronavirus pandemic is hitting U.S. meat operations, slowing and temporarily halting production at some plants as sickness and fear keep workers home.

Meat plant employees, working by the hundreds in plants, with many standing side by side on processing lines, play a critical role in replenishing supermarkets. But workers’ concerns that they could contract the coronavirus have prompted walkouts and complaints, while a growing number of positive cases prompts some meat companies to scale back operations.

JBS USA Holdings Inc. has closed a beef-processing plant in Souderton, Pa., for two weeks, a spokesman said over the weekend. The plant, which produces ground beef and other products and employs more than 1,000 people, gradually reduced operations last week after several managers were sent home with flulike symptoms.

Wendell Young, president of United Food and Commercial Workers Local 1776, which represents workers at the plant, said rising numbers of processing workers have fallen ill, and others were afraid to go to work.

“It accelerated rapidly in the previous week, and it created some production challenges,” Mr. Young said. JBS altered schedules and seating to create more distance between workers, but the nature of meatpacking work complicated those efforts, Mr. Young said.

The JBS spokesman said the temporary closure is meant to ensure the plant has sufficient management in place for its expected April 16 reopening. But for that issue, he said, the plant could operate safely.

Tyson Foods Inc. TSN 4.89% said Monday it suspended operations at its Columbus Junction, Iowa, pork plant after more than two dozen cases of Covid-19 were reported among employees there. The Arkansas-based company, the largest U.S. meat supplier by sales, is diverting hog deliveries from that plant to other nearby facilities, and employees are being paid during the anticipated one-week closure. Tyson is performing extra cleaning that has required some other plants to close for a day.

The slowdowns come as the $213 billion U.S. meat industry tries to adjust to the coronavirus-forced changes to American eating habits, reorienting the flow of ground beef, chicken breasts and sausage toward supermarkets and away from restaurants.

Meat supplies were high heading into the coronavirus pandemic. Total frozen chicken in U.S. cold-storage facilities on Feb. 29 stood at 925 million pounds, a record for the month, according to U.S. Agriculture Department data. Supplies of frozen pork, beef and other red meat climbed 5% versus February 2019, and were up 3% from January’s level. In 2019, the industry produced a record 105 billion pounds of red meat and poultry.

Coronavirus Hits Meat Plants as Some Workers Get Sick, Others Stay Home
 

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^ Informative and useful at the same time, so I hit "Winner" instead.

I think that a lot of the public do not realize just how much risk, ironically, "essential" workers are exposed to.

And this is not just in terms of their actual working conditions, as ATCclears brought up above, but it also extends to both how they must commute to work, as well as what happens after they return home.

Towards the latter, I'm sure that we've all seen news-stories of how many doctors and nurses elect to isolate themselves from their loved ones upon returning from their shifts, either sleeping in separate quarters within their home or even electing to stay in, say, their summer RV, parked on the driveway.

But what many haven't considered is the fact that some essential workers travel to and from their jobs in some of the most dangerous conditions possible, from packed subway trains in NYC (Packed Subway Trains Worry Essential Workers) or buses in CLE (More RTA employees test positive for COVID-19; officers find symptomatic man sleeping at station), in many cases ironically due to the transit authorities decision to scale-down operations from COVID-19.
 

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Still not convinced a pc of old tshirt will filter the INCOMING spores from another’s breathe being inhaled by you. Micro filtration aint that small.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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Still not convinced a pc of old tshirt will filter the INCOMING spores from another’s breathe being inhaled by you. Micro filtration aint that small.




Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
It's not for your protection from others. It's for protection of other from you.

And it doesn't have to stop a virus at fractions of an inch... It has to stop spit flying out of your mouth. Even if it's not 100% effective... 50%...25% is still better than 0%. Even redirection, decrease in velocity and distance, is still better than none.
 

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It's not for your protection from others. It's for protection of other from you.

And it doesn't have to stop a virus at fractions of an inch... It has to stop spit flying out of your mouth. Even if it's not 100% effective... 50%...25% is still better than 0%. Even redirection, decrease in velocity and distance, is still better than none.
I get that but still a false sense of security imo.
Yours may differ.
IF I feel the need for a mask it will be these at least they WILL be effective



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 

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I get that but still a false sense of security imo.
Yours may differ.
IF I feel the need for a mask it will be these at least they WILL be effective



Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Agreed. I've had a box if they get serious. So far not too many folks following. And yes, I know the technicalities.... And ya, I do know respirators, and it seems pretty silly wearing a cloth.
 
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It's not for your protection from others. It's for protection of other from you.
Which is why when you see people without masks you know they are self-centered, inconsiderate asshole pieces of crap.
 

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Or.. they don’t have a mask
Finding them is a joke.

All the regular suppliers of course are supremely backlogged, and aren’t really taking new orders per say.

You have to think way outside the box to find them, even still it’s way too late.
At this point employees of places have taken what was left.

Paint supply, landscape supply, HVAC supply, obscure small hardware supply places, these types of places usually carry a small stock of different masks and respirators.
But way too late now.

I bought the last respirator we had along with a big handful of replacement cartridges to give to a family member that works in the ER.

Could have sold it many times over since then.
 

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Or.. they don’t have a mask
OK. Fair enough. I have surgical masks. They are not N95 or whatever, but they will keep me from spreading anything. They stop about 80% and may limit intake around 20%.

If you can find even surgical masks, use them to stop this bug so we can move on. This is wrecking millions of families right now. Staggering.
 

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So, fun facts for the ones saying we don’t make this big of deal out of the flu.

Oklahoma hasn’t had any confirmed flu deaths in a week, and they are saying our state total deaths for this flu season is 83 people.
They start tracking on Sept 1st, so 83 people in 8 months.

The guy I knew that was the first Covid-19 death in Oklahoma passed away on March 18th.
Today (3 weeks later) Covid-19 has claimed 80 lives in the state.

That helps with perspective a little bit I suppose.

We aren’t out of the woods yet either.
 

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So, fun facts for the ones saying we don’t make this big of deal out of the flu.

Oklahoma hasn’t had any confirmed flu deaths in a week, and they are saying our state total deaths for this flu season is 83 people.
They start tracking on Sept 1st, so 83 people in 8 months.

The guy I knew that was the first Covid-19 death in Oklahoma passed away on March 18th.
Today (3 weeks later) Covid-19 has claimed 80 lives in the state.

That helps with perspective a little bit I suppose.

We aren’t out of the woods yet either.
I need to check on my HS buddy in Norman.
 

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^ Food banks all-over are being severely taxed.....

So may folks have either lost their jobs or otherwise have taken a hit on wages that it's become hard to feed themselves and their families. And again, it isn't just what folks would consider as "poor" that's been affected. Jobs are being affected all across socioeconomic strata.

As long as social services holds out, I think we'll be OK, but I fear that it won't take but a missed meal or two before unrest starts to brew and boil.


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Still not convinced a pc of old tshirt will filter the INCOMING spores from another’s breathe being inhaled by you. Micro filtration aint that small.
It's not for your protection from others. It's for protection of other from you.

And it doesn't have to stop a virus at fractions of an inch... It has to stop spit flying out of your mouth. Even if it's not 100% effective... 50%...25% is still better than 0%. Even redirection, decrease in velocity and distance, is still better than none.
^ I think what Powerman noted above needs to be re-iterated.

Having *everyone* "mask up" with "dust/nuisance/surgical" masks or home/commercially-made facial coverings is *_NOT_* about protecting the masked individual from "catching" SARS-CoV-2 virus. Rather, it is to help curtail the possibility that an infected but yet asymptomatic individual may spread virus unknowingly with droplets from their mouth and nose.

This is an area where I think that our authorities have done a really poor job in explaining the whys/hows to the population at-large, and the proof is right here in our exchanges on this very Forum, in the above exchange between these two members.


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I get that but still a false sense of security imo.
Yours may differ.
IF I feel the need for a mask it will be these at least they WILL be effective
Speaking of false sense of security, I think that this is a good time to go over those caveats that Powerman hinted at in his post (https://www.xdtalk.com/posts/7872401/).

(1) Remember that N95 masks do expire. It is debated just how effective expired N95s are as compared to those that are within-date. As "preppers" many of us have stocked-away N95 masks. As Max Brooks noted in his NPR interview from a couple of weeks ago, this is not necessarily for a pandemic/epidemic scenario, but rather, for simple airborne irritants after natural disasters or structure collapses. While a degradation in filter material is not likely going to be problematic in that context, in terms of viral pathogens, it certainly will. There's unfortunately not much that any of us can do about this (aside from remembering to renew your stock of N95s on a regular basis), but we can give ourselves best-odds even with expired masks by insuring that we get a good fit. Here, it's the headbands and the nose-piece seal (and surrounding area) that are most important, and storage conditions can compromise both of these critical components.

(2) Similarly, note that if you want to re-use an N95 (or even "surgical/dust/nuisance" mask), understand that viral particles can get lodged in the mask material and remain viable there, in some cases, for up to a week. If you plan to re-use, be sure to take the time to allow your used masks to sufficiently decontaminate prior to re-use. Front-line hospital personnel have long instituted such home-made measures by simply leaving their used masks in date-stamped cases or even Zip-Loc baggies and rotating them on a no-more-frequently-than-weekly basis. Here's a good demo of a home-method:


(3) Finally, remember that according to published peer-reviewed studies, it's known that the discomfort from wearing a properly-sealing N95 respirator (this can be seen in pictures of front-line medical personnel coming off shifts, where their faces show skin creases and damage from extended N95 respirator wear) can cause the wearer to self-touch at an increased frequency. The CDC actually cites this "contact transmission" as the single biggest risk to extended N95 respirator use, so if and when you progress to this level of protection, be EXTRA mindful of this - don't touch your face with "unclean" hands.


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Additionally, for those unfamiliar with N95 usage, remember to perform a "user seal check" EACH time you use the mask. I've posted this before, but given the turn of the thread, I think it's worth posting again ---->


Understand that this is not a "fit test" (which can only be done with proper instrumentation) - but rather that this is a field-expedient "check" to at least verify that you have put on the mask reasonably well (think of this as the baseplate "whack test" for your AR15 magazines).
 
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