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Was reading that an attacker can close a distance of twenty feet in less that one second. I believe this is the Tueller principle. I not sure of the exact distance and times, but close enough for my question.

Does this princple take into consideration the defender moving away from the attacker. If the defender was moving away at even half the speed of the attacker, wouldn't this increase the time to respond to the situation.
I don't believe that I would just stand there and allow someone to attack me with a knife without moving to create some extra distance between myself and the the attacker, just out of fear, even if I was carrying a gun.

However, If you have no where to run to, or must stay to defend the life of a family member, this may change the situation.

Any thoughts?
 

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we were tought 21ft in 3 seconds. that doesnot account for defensive movement.

thats why its important to train. you should be able to draw from concealment and aquire your target in less than 3 seconds, UNDER stress.
 

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The Tueller concept is based off reaction being less efficient and swift when compared to action. The thinking is a person (armed with a blunt instrument, edged weapon, or bare hands) can close a gap of 21ft before a shooter can draw and fire, thereby making them more of an even match. I can draw, fire, and hit a man sized target reasonably quick (not 100% sure of exact time, maybe 2 to 2.5 seconds?), and that's when I'm calm and focused on the action. Add some stress to it, and its no longer a smooth operation. Plus your brain has to figure out some things:

1) You're being threatened
2) In order to survive, you must draw your weapon
3) You are armed
4) Where is your gun?
5) Get ahold of the gun
6) Get it on target and start pulling the trigger

IMHO, its a lot goin on. Our natural human instinct gives us the well known "fight or flight" response, either we'll stand our ground and fight, or we'll flee out of self-preservation. I'd assume you'd figure out which of these you are rather quickly in a violent confrontation (I like to think I'd be a balance of the two personally, but fate hasn't demanded I face that test yet, fortunately), and then its all up to how you take control of the situation. Personally, my focus (I would presume anyway) would be to retreat to gain distance, while drawing and then presenting the firearm in order to commence firing. Granted, I'm no tactitian, and I've never been in a violent confrontation, but that's the mindset I've always been in. Retreat if possible, but keep plan B moving as well. :)

Once more, this is JMHO, feel free to let me know I havn't a clue as to what I'm talking about. :)

Matthew
 

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Discussion Starter #5
msidner
Retreat if possible, but keep plan B moving as well.
I agree, Seems to make sense to create as much distance as possible, when possible, to respond to the situation.

What was implied, was that a person would not be able to respond fast enough to draw a weapon from concealment to respond to a threat, if it was happening at this pace. I just didn't know if it was accounting for someone moving away from the threat defensively.
 

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The way i learned it, it was in regards to an assailant who may suddenly engage you with an edged weapon(knife, etc). It was taught to me that a minimum of 21ft is required for a trained officer with a duty holster weapon to unholster, and squeeze of two rounds center mass. We watched some training videos that simulated the studied scenarios and from like something like a 5ft distance you wouldn't even be able to touch your gun. At 10ft you'd get to your gun but most likely not unholster it. At 15 ft you'd get the gun unholstered but would most likely not be able to fire any rounds and if fired minimal chance of landing the shots properly.

Of course side stepping is one response that potentially will give you a moment more to go for your weapon or execute an alternative response.


This is what i picked up from the very basic training i've been gettin in a reserve officer training course. Ofcourse, i'm sure there are many debatable techiniques to respond to edged weapon opponents as well as challenges to the whole 21ft thing... but this is just what i've been taught.
 

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"...The necessity for speed is vital and can never be
sufficiently emphasised. The average shooting affray
is a matter of split seconds. If you-take much longer
than a third of a second to fire your first shot, you
will not be the one to tell the nowspapers about it.
It is literaly a matter of the quick and the dead.
Take your choice." -- William Fairbairn, SHOOTING TO LIVE


Yes, that is one THIRD of a second to draw and fire.
 

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During CCW training, my instructor grabbed some batons, placed himself next to the shooter with the pistol unholstered but down. Then he said "go" and ran in a safe direction while the shooter shot the target as quickly as possible. Every time the instructor heard a shot, he dropped a baton. No kidding - the fist one was at least 20 feet, then they were probably 10 or 15 feet apart from that point. You IDPA shooters could have done much better, but the point was demonstrated to me: distance is very deceiving.

Because of the advantage a criminal has in closing distance, I've always assumed that there is the possibilty that the I may be in the bad guy's grasp with a knife in my abdomen when I draw and place several rounds in him- muzzle against his body. That's not a pleasant thought (i.e. knife in my side), but if I stop him before he gets to anyone else (like my family), then I have still won the battle. He has an advantage of surprise - but so do we. He's probably not expecting a barage of 40 S&W rounds.
 

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To me, the most important aspect of surviving a cofrontation is situational awareness. I try to be well aware of my environment at all times so I'm not totally suprised by some bad guy. You don't usually have a problem with some guy wearing a suit and tie and carrying a briefcase but when I see some dude in his gang banger outfit, I've already picked out the spot where I want the first two round to impact.
 

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Yes, that is one THIRD of a second to draw and fire.
Considering the fact that the best competition shooters in the world can only draw and fire in about 0.6 seconds from a ready position, with a competition race holster/gun, I'm thinking that there must be more to the "third of a second to fire your first shot" idea.

Splits and transitions in 1/3 of a second should be no problem with some practice. Drawing and firing in 1/3 of a second simply isn't possible.

Scott
 

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ScottQ said:
Yes, that is one THIRD of a second to draw and fire.
Considering the fact that the best competition shooters in the world can only draw and fire in about 0.6 seconds from a ready position, with a competition race holster/gun, I'm thinking that there must be more to the "third of a second to fire your first shot" idea.

It's not my idea, it's Fairbairn's. You're right, though; he wasn't a competitive shooter. He just shot people.

And read his whole sentence. "If you take much longer
than a third of a second to fire your first shot, you
will not be the one to tell the nowspapers about it."

You can read the whole book at:

http://www.gutterfighting.org/files/shooting_to_live.pdf
 

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An interesting book, I must say. Though on the topic of "If you take longer than a third of a second to fire your first shot" it simply can't be done with a holstered weapon. It's not possible.

Scott
 

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The Tueller drill is a training drill used to demonstrate what your minu safe distance from a bad guy should be.

The drill is set up by standing two students facing each other 21 feet apart. One student is to remain standing still while the other takes off running as fast as they can until they slap the the other student on the arm. The instructor signals the runner to take off and times them from first step until they strike the other student. This time is then used as a basis for what your draw times should be to defend yourself if attacked from 21 feet. If you can draw faster then the average time (Which normally runs somewhere around 1.25 sec) then 21 feet would be considered a safe(?) distance. If not then you need to expand your safe distance until you can beat the runner. Although this drill was orginially designed by Tueller it was really made famous by Mas Ayoob of LFI when he started using it in his classes.

Regarding reaction times..............USPSA has done a lot of testing on reaction times and has settled on .25-30 as being about the lower limit. .30 is the reaction time allowed for reaction to a audio signal during matches. Reaction times to visual signals tends to take a little longer.

If you use the 21 feet as a standard, a top notch, fully prepared, competition shooter using race equipment, can normally react, draw and fire one round into the "A" zone of an USPSA target in about .65-.80 seconds reiliably. Most can't, regardless of what they may tell themselves, or anyone else. The average of say "A" class thru "Grandmaster" class shooters is probably closer to 1.0-1.2 seconds. If you take out the reaction time of .25-.30 you are left with between .40 and .90 seconds of time required just for the movement of the body and the gun. And keep in mind these are trained professional's who have spent 100's of hours and 100,000 of rep's to prefect this movement.

SOOOOO when someone, ANYONE, tells you that you need to have a 1/3 (.30) second draw, they are full of sh*t....................
 

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Something else to think about for the "Fast draw" experts...in competition or drills your brain knows your going to draw fast so your ready to act. On the street you can't walk around being prepared to draw on everyone that crosses your path (I guess you could, but you'ld be pretty strung out) so add some reaction time to the draw.

"Surviving Edged Weapons" with Dan Inosanto and Leo Gaje, reknown Filipino knife experts also explored this theory. Some of the highlights were the warehouse scene where Dan throws his wallet as a distraction and attacks. Another one was when Dan was charging with a knife, the officer drops to one knee while drawing his weapon, effectively placing his neck right at knife level, who can guess what happens next?

Gun people are quick to reach for the gun in any circumstance. What the video was simply showing was to "survive" first, perhaps running in the opposite direction while drawing or putting an obstacle between you and the BG before drawing the weapon.

Some people have trouble with "running away" to gain a tactical advantage percieving it as "weak". For those of you that have a duty to run in self defense (no longer in Florida!) this may in fact serve that purpose. Something else to consider is to take classes to actually learn how to use a knife. I feel in order to effectively defend against something you have to understand its strengths and weaknesses.
 

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Would I be correct in assuming you are referring to shooting weapons like the Glock or XD, where one just pulls the trigger and shoots?

My former dept. issues the Beretta 92f, which has an external safety. We were required (tho not all complied) to carry it in the holster with the safety on. That of course necessitates releasing the safety as you draw, taking a bit more time. One more thing to factor in.
 

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After reading through the original source document in some more detail, I believe the 1/3 of a second that's referred to is from what we would today call a "low ready" position. Certainly possible to put a shot on target from that position in 1/3 of a second.

Scott
 

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Well, I guess we know that the authors mean "really fast".

But what do you guys think about the rest of the book?
 

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mcone said:
Well, I guess we know that the authors mean "really fast".

But what do you guys think about the rest of the book?


Yes, Fairbairn isn't saying, "If you're this fast you'll live, slower than that you'll die." He's saying that you had better be damn fast, and speed is more important than pinpoint accuracy.

Their book is somewhat dated now, but Fairbairn and Sykes were the first people to come up with a systematic combat pistol methodology, and everything since then has been based to a greater or lesser degree off their work.

The method was originally developed for police on a tight budget, so some things look very odd to the modern shooter, but make sense in context. Carrying a 1911 with the chamber empty, for example. Sounds crazy, but note that there were more cops than guns. At the end of a shift a gun would be unloaded and handed over to another cop, who would load it before going out on his shift. All that handling would result in a lot of NDs if they were working with one up the pipe. Modern shooters don't work that way.

The fundementals, though, haven't changed much and their observations are based on observation of, and participation in, hundreds of shootouts.
 

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"If you're this fast you'll live, slower than that you'll die." He's saying that you had better be damn fast, and speed is more important than pinpoint accuracy.
I read things like this and wonder why this type of thread keeps popping up. It's like people keep thinking you have to be a Marshal Matt Dillon or Billy the kid. Certainly it does not hurt to learn fast draw. But then I look at the gunfight Mark Wilson was in. Didn't have a damn thing to do with being a fast draw situation. He needed a head shot and didn't get it. You can be the fastest gun in the west or where ever and it's not going to do you any good if the guy is wearing body armor. In this case pinpoint accuracy would have kept him alive not a fast draw. Since body armor seems to be the new fashion these days I think it's high time people started rethinking about how they will stay alive in a gunfight.
 
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