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Discussion Starter #1
It would seem that the concensous is that if your attacked at a distance of twenty feet that you will need to be pretty fast (times varying) to actually place attack stopping rounds on an assaillant with a pistol drawn from concealment even in ideal training conditions, not to mention the stress of a real confrontation.

So if you add defensive movement, how much time will this buy you until over taken, on average? How would you move? Sidestep? Backpeddling? How would this effect your ability to draw your weapon? I believe that putting something, anything in between you and the attacker would also help buy time. But more importantly how would you train for this.

I am using the assumption that you would not turn your back on your attacker, as not to be killed or injuried from behind w/o ever even mounting a defence.
 

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Just my 2 cent's - When I was trained for my ccw in maryland and in a private training acadmey for Executive protection, the 21' "rule" was that if you were confronting a subject that was armed,or thought to be armed " knife,pole,bat,broken bottle etc." that 21' was the (Golden Distance) at which you could use deadly force free from liability,because it is reconized as the distance at which an average adult male can charge from a standing still position and inflict a fatal wound or blow.
 

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I move offline at a 45 degree angle, just because that's how I've been trained to move after years in martial arts.

While the 45 degree movement has its own benefits, the imporant thing is moving out of the line of attack.

You should never move backwards if you can help it.

Also, move as you draw. Don't draw and then move.
 

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Hm.. to be able to draw and fire your weapon while being charged you want to be moving away from the aggressor.. whether you choose backwards at a 45 degree or straight back.. backpeddle and get your weapon ready.. the whole side step thing works great in training but have someone that really wants your blood.. I dont see the sidestepping working at all
 

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Sure , you dont even need a gun to defeat or defend against an attacker armed with less than a firearm. If you have trained to do so. And if you are not trained in the Arts or defense there are other options . After hand to hand mine are listed as pepper foam then asp and as a last resort or if you are REALLY in fear for your's or someone else's life it's time to draw your wepon and use deadly force.
 

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Discussion Starter #9
How's this: If and when you realize an attack is in progess from twenty feet, move defensively to create distance when possible, there by increaseing the time to respond, draw while moving defensively, once the firearm is drawn, secure your stance to fire, off angle from the direction of the attack. Deliver the necessary aimed fire to stop the attack.
 

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We shoot once a week at the range. It is a IDPA style with training just like you want. We move backwards, sideways and yes sometimes forward to cover while drawing and firing. If you practice it will come as second nature. It's all you can do.
 

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The real object of fighting is not to control your attacker's body; it's to control the space between their body and your own.
 

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The Tengu said:
I move offline at a 45 degree angle, just because that's how I've been trained to move after years in martial arts.

While the 45 degree movement has its own benefits, the imporant thing is moving out of the line of attack.

You should never move backwards if you can help it.

Also, move as you draw. Don't draw and then move.
I'm pretty much in full agreement with this statement. Moving directly backwards is just begging for trouble (trip over or run into something). Moving at a 45 degree angle, either towards or away from your attacker, requires that s/he both notice your movement and react to it by changing direction. This change in direction and the time required to execute it, however insignificant they may seem, will slow your attacker down and could possibly result in them losing balance/falling on anything but a perfect surface.
 

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I usually try to carry something in my off-hand (cup of coffee, shopping bag, briefcase, etc). If someone would ever become a threat, left (off) hand tosses the object forward and to the side for distraction. If the threat is close in, then the left (off) hand is used to block/deflect the threat to the left. Meanwhile, my right (strong) hand is drawing up and rocking the pistol barrel up and ready to shoot from retention. The distraction will usually buy you a half second or more. And if you combine that with a back/right step, you've given yourself an extra second or so with which to draw. Then you can evaluate the situation, determine if the threat is still warrants deadly force and decide whether a retention shot is necessary or if you'll have time to bring the muzzle up for a point shot or a front sight shot.

But the most helpful piece to all of this is the combination of the distraction toss and the back-and-side step- just like a magician does something distracting with one hand, you'll briefly cause the threat to change focus off of you and onto the object.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
The direction of travel would seem to be less important, when compared to the way one moves. If backpeddling, any dircection, 45 degree's or straight, tripping or running into something is just as likely. If one was side shuffling, with weaponside away from attacker, it would lend to better balance, and peripherial vision may help avoid an obstacle. Then again, if you do trip and have yet to draw your weapon, you'll fall with your weapon between you and the ground. Pick your poison. Of course, choice of direction may still be limited (hallway, alley, between cars) or enhanced (moving to available cover), either way, it will be dictated by environment.

I would think that a person would be able to adjust an attack if you were to move off at 45 degree's without to much problem. Particularlly if you both started to move at twenty feet apart. The critical time to move off angle would be as the attackers weapon is committed to a strike. This would depend on speed of the attack, weapon employed, reach of the attacker (is attacker 5'6" or 6'5").

I like the idea of throwing something at the attacker to distract them and buy even still more time. Similar to an LEO throwing his ticket book at an attacker in a car during a traffic stop. I have often thought of this while carrying a hot mocha. 155 degree's, OUCH.

Of course, as stated earlier, situational awareness will always be key.
 

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It's a timing issue. Going at a 45-degree angle gives you both backwards and sideways movement at the same time.

Is that angle always practical? No, and I'm not saying that it is always the answer. All I'm saying is that you must move offline as your initial reaction to a threat.

If you're doing a Tueller drill at 21' by the time you make the conscious decision to move, your attacker will already be 5-10 feet in front of you and closing fast. If you do not move offline immediately, you're screwed.
 

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Is that angle always practical? No
This is true. At the range running at a 45 degree angle may work fine but in a real world situation there could easily be an obstrution in the way. Then you may want to go to plan B. Just depends on your surroundings.
 

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Just a few qestions. What if there is no place to retreat to like between parked cars? What if you are with someone in a wheelchair, or crutches or you are the one in a wheelchair, or crutches?
 

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one-eyed-fatman said:
At the range running at a 45 degree angle may work fine but in a real world situation there could easily be an obstrution in the way. Then you may want to go to plan B. Just depends on your surroundings.
Of course you can't always move at exactly 45 degrees. The point is to move offline, not directly backwards. I've seen a bunch of pointless fights, and it's amazing how many people try to dodge attacks by backing up.

agalindo said:
Just a few qestions. What if there is no place to retreat to like between parked cars? What if you are with someone in a wheelchair, or crutches or you are the one in a wheelchair, or crutches?
Um... you're screwed? Those are situations in which situational awareness is vital. You're already at a disadvantage, and you need to react accordingly. If you're in a wheelchair between parked cars, throw your wallet and hope that's all the attacker wants. If s/he grabs it and continues towards you, hopefully you will have had time to draw a "defensive device."
 

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Discussion Starter #19
If you're doing a Tueller drill at 21' by the time you make the conscious decision to move, your attacker will already be 5-10 feet in front of you and closing fast. If you do not move offline immediately, you're screwed.
I have a hard time believing this to be true, but am open to further discussion. If you know an attacker is coming at twenty feet, I would think that you would have enough time to respond. Case in point: Freestyle Sparring. (Two people free to attack and defend, try to land a solid technique.) Routinely two people will stand 3-5 feet apart, one makes an offensive move, lets say a backknuckle/Reverse punch combination. The other person will then move off angle and block an counter attack. If a person could cross 10-15 feet before you had a chance to respond, in sparring you would always be hit by an attack. Blocking would be worthless, which we know not to be true. If you can block an attack by a skilled person at 3-5 feet, twenty feet should give you plenty of time to respond. Then if the time is increased by defensive movement, even better. But if you move offline to early you've lost your advantage, unless you move off angle again an the as the attack reaches the point of commitment. Again enviroment will still be factor in what direction to move. Am I missing something?
 

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emschris said:
If you're doing a Tueller drill at 21' by the time you make the conscious decision to move, your attacker will already be 5-10 feet in front of you and closing fast. If you do not move offline immediately, you're screwed.
I have a hard time believing this to be true, but am open to further discussion. If you know an attacker is coming at twenty feet, I would think that you would have enough time to respond. Case in point: Freestyle Sparring. (Two people free to attack and defend, try to land a solid technique.) Routinely two people will stand 3-5 feet apart, one makes an offensive move, lets say a backknuckle/Reverse punch combination. The other person will then move off angle and block an counter attack. If a person could cross 10-15 feet before you had a chance to respond, in sparring you would always be hit by an attack. Blocking would be worthless, which we know not to be true. If you can block an attack by a skilled person at 3-5 feet, twenty feet should give you plenty of time to respond. Then if the time is increased by defensive movement, even better. But if you move offline to early you've lost your advantage, unless you move off angle again an the as the attack reaches the point of commitment. Again enviroment will still be factor in what direction to move. Am I missing something?
I think we should discuss the best option available to all of us.. RUN!
There is no shame in wanting to live to see another day, and if the run option fails then resort to something else, I like how overkill calls his XD "Plan B" because the first priority is saving your ass which doesnt always include the John Wayne style approach
 
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