Springfield XD Forum banner

1 - 20 of 20 Posts

·
Banned
Joined
·
744 Posts
Discussion Starter #1
I posted in another thread that someone started asking what 2 types of rounds are good. One was for target the other for self defense. I stated Winchester White Box (WWB) from Wal Mart for target shooting were good and Speer Gold Dot 165 grain hollow points for self defense is what I used. I forgot to check the damn Gold Dot boxes this morning as I saved them and put them away. One round the other poster on here mentions obviously doesn't have the same travel rate as the other per the link provided in his post below.

However, what about the claim that "It has a very consistant reputation to NOT expand in anything."


Another member on here posted this;


A small warning on the 165 Gold dots. Be VERY carefull what part number you get!!!! They have two loads in 165. One is a downloaded load to give less recoil for recoil sensitive shooters a weaker round to carry. Part number 53949 will be a the slower one. Part number 53970 will be the full power load.

Do yourself a favor and check the part number and avoid the 53949 at all costs. If has a very consistant reputation to NOT expand in anything.

Once again avoid part number 53949.

Buy it if its 53970.

I have no clue why they still load it and why they do not put a warning on the box to let the buyer know........

Here is the link with both loads listed..

LE - Gold Dot
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,524 Posts
However, what about the claim that "It has a very consistant reputation to NOT expand in anything."
If this is the statement you wish to have clarified, here's some good reading: Do Hollow Points Always Expand - Shooters Forum

I'd ask the individual who made that statement to back it up with testing in multiple media, including human flesh, bone and organs.

5150 makes some good points in the third post in the thread that I linked above. Bullet expansion is very individualized - to the gun, the medium into which the gun is fired, etc. Expansion is also secondary to shot placement. Sure, the point of a JHP is to expand. However, if you can't hit your target under stress, expansion is irrelevant.

Personally, I'd spend more time in stress-induced active shooting drills than I would e-arguing about the expansion capabilities of a given bullet. ;)
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
As Mudinyeri says ask for scientific proof of his statement. I've never heard of what he's describing.
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
Test on GD 53949 using FBI protocols.




GD 165gr 53970
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
744 Posts
Discussion Starter #5
If this is the statement you wish to have clarified, here's some good reading: Do Hollow Points Always Expand - Shooters Forum

I'd ask the individual who made that statement to back it up with testing in multiple media, including human flesh, bone and organs.

5150 makes some good points in the third post in the thread that I linked above. Bullet expansion is very individualized - to the gun, the medium into which the gun is fired, etc. Expansion is also secondary to shot placement. Sure, the point of a JHP is to expand. However, if you can't hit your target under stress, expansion is irrelevant.

Personally, I'd spend more time in stress-induced active shooting drills than I would e-arguing about the expansion capabilities of a given bullet. ;)
Here is the post I was referring to. [Post #6 to be specific]

http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/general-sa-xd-xd-m-talk/176015-10-day-wait-period-over.html
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
:rolleyes:Boris.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,524 Posts
Looks like Boris needs to check out the charts that agalindo posted.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,141 Posts
I am of the opinion, and its just opinion, I base very little science or picture charts on it...

if you poke a .40 cal or 9mm sized hole in someone. its bad for them. chances are they wont stand there criticizing you ammo choice.

"I am sorry sir, you should have chosen 165 gr brand X over the 135 gr you hit me with. as you can see my liver is still intact. go ahead and make another hole so I may taunt you a second time."
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
You opinion is incorrect. You have to poke the hole into a vital area and the bigger the hole the faster the incapacitation. Unlike the movies the bad guy rarely goes down as soon as he is hit even if it's a fatal wound. Also the majority of the time he won't say ouch, start crying and stop what he's doing. There are many documented cases, several posted on this board where the person being hit by a bullet does not even know they have been hit. One not long ago where this guy shot himself in the hand. He said it didn't start hurting until he was at the hospital. Don't rely on the ouch factor to stop a bad guy.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,141 Posts
I am thinking more of the "bleed out" factor than ouch factor. if you hit center of mass or at least a torso shot it should help. right?
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
COM helps but doesn't guarantee that it will happen, that's why the edge goes to the bullet that expands the most and penetrates deep enough. The larger hole created by it has a better chance of cutting or crushing a vital organ or major artery.
 

·
Banned
Joined
·
744 Posts
Discussion Starter #12
com helps but doesn't guarantee that it will happen, that's why the edge goes to the bullet that expands the most and penetrates deep enough. The larger hole created by it has a better chance of cutting or crushing a vital organ or major artery.

bingo!
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,197 Posts
I am of the opinion, and its just opinion, I base very little science or picture charts on it...

if you poke a .40 cal or 9mm sized hole in someone. its bad for them. chances are they wont stand there criticizing you ammo choice.

"I am sorry sir, you should have chosen 165 gr brand X over the 135 gr you hit me with. as you can see my liver is still intact. go ahead and make another hole so I may taunt you a second time."
It's a nice thought, one shared by too many. A determined attacker won't give a crap what you are shooting him with, He will stop when he is dead. That will only occur w/ a CNS hit or when the target's blood pressure drops enough for it to lose conciousness. Assuming the fact you are hitting your target & the fight isn't over will eventually get you killed. Shoot to stop the fight, anything you can hit as often as possible. Shoot until the threat us over.
As noted, COM is a good starting place, but smaller bullets, smoother FMJ bullets, poke small holes. If the guy is really big, he has a really big COM w/ lots of room to miss the good stuff. A FMJ pokes a smooth hole, smaller than the caliber & it's almost self sealing. Fat & muscle will expand & then fall back into place. The result is a pretty slow bleed out. Even a heart shot w/ a FMJ will likely allow 20-30sec of serious fight left in the attacker. How dead can he make you in 20sec if he has any kind of weapon? The very small CNS, spine & head, are the only definetive spots to stop a fight right now. Diff to hit in a hurry & consider that you & your target are likely moving, pretty tough shot.
So shoot the largest caliber you can control, use the best JHP you can find, then practice until you are nearly perfect at the range, because in a real gunfight, you'll be about half as good as you are on your best day at the range.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,524 Posts
I am of the opinion ... if you poke a .40 cal or 9mm sized hole in someone. its bad for them. chances are they wont stand there criticizing you ammo choice.
You opinion is incorrect.
Strictly speaking, I'd have to agree with Bonehead. Poking a hole in someone is bad for them. Unfortunately, random holes - of any caliber - may or may not incapacitate and stop the threat.

COM holes are good. CNS holes are better. Blow a hole through an attacker's CNS (Central Nervous System) and incapacitation will be almost immediate.

I highly recommend training on photo-realistic targets that highlight the anatomy and CNS like this one:



A few guys that I shoot with use glue sticks to paste playing cards just below the chin between the collar bones. It's a lower percentage shot than a COM shot but there's almost no protective bone structure to hinder the bullet on its way to the spinal column behind the throat.

One might practice what are known as "triple taps" - two shots COM and one immediately following to the head or, alternatively, to the area I described above.

Rinse and repeat. YMMV
 

·
Premium Member
Joined
·
16,428 Posts
During a high stress situation, with both parties moving and shooting at each other Mozambique is wishful thinking. Aim COM and keep firing until the threat stops.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,197 Posts
During a high stress situation, with both parties moving and shooting at each other Mozambique is wishful thinking. Aim COM and keep firing until the threat stops.
THIS^ Everyone thinks they can deliver Mozambique or a head shot, try it on a flat range while moving, Gets harder. Now put the target moving, just a bit, harder still. My drill, a 4" ballon on an 8" piece of string, outdoors, preferably some wind.
Triple tap, never heard the term. It's always been called FTS drill or Mozambique.:confused:
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
2,524 Posts
During a high stress situation, with both parties moving and shooting at each other Mozambique is wishful thinking. Aim COM and keep firing until the threat stops.
My tongue was in my cheek a bit on that one. However, I spent several hundred hours back in the day with some trainers who were convinced that it was the only way to go.
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
12,197 Posts
My tongue was in my cheek a bit on that one. However, I spent several hundred hours back in the day with some trainers who were convinced that it was the only way to go.
Yep, works almost 100% of the time on static targets while you are standing still.;)
 

·
Registered
Joined
·
18,141 Posts
Yep, works almost 100% of the time on static targets while you are standing still.;)


I didn't claim I could pull it off. I just said that what I call it. :oops:

I just wanna be able to poke .30 or .40 cal holes in bad guy if it ever comes to that, I hope I NEVER have to.
 
1 - 20 of 20 Posts
Top