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snippet:

No U.S. utility has ever blacked out so many people on purpose. PG&E says it could knock out power to as much as an eighth of the state’s population for as long as five days when dangerously high winds arise. Communities likely to get shut off worry PG&E will put people in danger, especially the sick and elderly, and cause financial losses with slim hope of compensation.

In October, in a test run of sorts, PG&E for the first time cut power to several small communities over wildfire concerns, including the small Napa Valley town of Calistoga, for about two days. Emergency officials raced door-to-door to check on elderly residents, some of whom relied on electric medical devices. Grocers dumped spoiling inventory. Hotels lost business.

PG&E is “essentially shifting all of the burden, all of the losses onto everyone else,” said Dylan Feik, who was Calistoga city manager until earlier this month.

https://www.wsj.com/articles/pg-es-...id-11556337671?mod=itp_wsj&mod=&mod=djemITP_h
 

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Well, long story short, they lost their way. Their new CEO is a TVA man, who might bring them back to being an energy provider, and might not.
 

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Well, as bone headed ideas go, that's got to a top 10, maybe top 5, contender.
 

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Well they have 30 billion in suits against them, they are bankrupt, they burned down 19,000 structures.... And oh ya... They killed 86 people in one fire. It may be ridiculous they have to do because they have not kept up on maintain I g their system.... But doing to potentially not kill 100 people... It begins sounding reasonable.
 

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There's something to the "wild west" these days isn't there. And the wildest is right there on the far left, or is it west?, coast.

If they keep moving left they'll be in China some day.
 

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The problem is they could shut down the power for days, and one shot of lightning could still set the ''mismanaged'' woods on fire and burn half the state down. Who will they sue then? God?
 

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Their lands are severely mismanaged by the state. 835mag is 100% correct on this.

It's not really much different from the Gatlinburg fire storm from a few years ago where the whole place went up like a tinderbox because Gatlinburg is a tourist town based on their mountains, which they never wanted to burn.

This in turn created essentially decades of materials on the ground that when it was set on fire, well, it burned.

I know that there are many people who died in that fire and I would never make light of that. And I know many business and home owners also lost their possessions and livelihood. I also would never make light of that either.

But when you NEVER allow anything to burn, one day, it's going to burn down all around you and you will be powerless to stop it.

 

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The problem is they could shut down the power for days, and one shot of lightning could still set the ''mismanaged'' woods on fire and burn half the state down. Who will they sue then? God?
Lightening is out of their control... When fire conditions are extreme, AND winds are high.... Well, that is a known and it's in their control to not be part of the problem.

I'm not saying it's a great idea... It would cause huge impacts.... The least of which is them not actually making revenue... Loosing 5 days of revenue is no small thing.... The action could absolutely be detrimental to public safety for a lot of reason. Cause a lot of hardships for a lot of people... Ya, it's pretty hosed up.... And completely asinine they are in the position to consider such actions. Doesn't change the fact they are in that positions..
Tubbs was horrible... Until Camp Fire hit.... And that can't happen again.
 

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Their lands are severely mismanaged by the state. 835mag is 100% correct on this.

It's not really much different from the Gatlinburg fire storm from a few years ago where the whole place went up like a tinderbox because Gatlinburg is a tourist town based on their mountains, which they never wanted to burn.

This in turn created essentially decades of materials on the ground that when it was set on fire, well, it burned.

I know that there are many people who died in that fire and I would never make light of that. And I know many business and home owners also lost their possessions and livelihood. I also would never make light of that either.

But when you NEVER allow anything to burn, one day, it's going to burn down all around you and you will be powerless to stop it.
I'm not saying you are wrong... Ya, we know a lot about fire management now... But when it's so hot, and so dry, and winds are so high... A fire will still destroy everything. We had Waldo fire that made it to the city... It has historically hot dry and windy... The very next year, black forest went up. If you live here... We've all said... One day, Black Forest will go up in flames... It's a forest out growth at a little higher elevation all residential. They've gone on for years about fire management and fire/fuel mitigation. Well... For the most part... They did. Lots of work done... But black forest still burned to the ground at a very hot dry windy time. The only difference was the homes that did a proper job of reducing fuels around their home had defensible homes and those that didn't burned... But most of Black forest was lost.

So fire mitigation doesn't garantee fire won't be catastrophic... But you are right we know with no fire mitigation like controlled burns... Ya we know fires will be catastrophic.
 

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Buried lines don't start fires when the wind blows. I wouldn't be surprised if they survive earthquakes better than wires on poles as well.
 

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Buried lines don't start fires when the wind blows. I wouldn't be surprised if they survive earthquakes better than wires on poles as well.
Yep, and they are 3-4 times more expensive than overhead. Nobody wants to look at overhead, and nobody wants to pay for underground. Go figure...
 

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Yep, and they are 3-4 times more expensive than overhead. Nobody wants to look at overhead, and nobody wants to pay for underground. Go figure...
How can that be? Poles cost like $10k each. A big ditchwitch just needs fuel and maintenance, but so do post hole machines.
 

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How can that be? Poles cost like $10k each. A big ditchwitch just needs fuel and maintenance, but so do post hole machines.
I'll say it again.... Underground lines are 3-4 times the cost of overhead. Feel free to research that all you want. I'm not trying to be snarky... I'm saving you the trouble if you want to take my word for it.
 

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How can that be? Poles cost like $10k each. A big ditchwitch just needs fuel and maintenance, but so do post hole machines.
I have been a lineman for an electric utility for 26 years. A 40' class 5 ditribution pole costs $500. Approx. 25 poles per mile. My crew and I can harware and set a pole in 30 miniutes. (New construction poles already stake dropped.) Overhead 1/0 ACSR bare conductor costs about $0.60/foot. Two wires for single phase so $1.20/foot four wires for 3 phase= $2.40/foot. 4/0 aluminium 15KV underground distribution cable costs about $9.50/foot installed in good soil on relativily flat ground. That's one cable for single phase, multiply by three for 3 phase. Get into rock and mountianous rough terrain and that cost can triple. As a general rule underground distribution costs three times as much to build as overhead. When you get into transmission class contruction (69KV and up) underground is not an option. It does exist up to about 138KV but the costs are staggering as high as $1000/foot.
 

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I have been a lineman for an electric utility for 26 years. A 40' class 5 ditribution pole costs $500. Approx. 25 poles per mile. My crew and I can harware and set a pole in 30 miniutes. (New construction poles already stake dropped.) Overhead 1/0 ACSR bare conductor costs about $0.60/foot. Two wires for single phase so $1.20/foot four wires for 3 phase= $2.40/foot. 4/0 aluminium 15KV underground distribution cable costs about $9.50/foot installed in good soil on relativily flat ground. That's one cable for single phase, multiply by three for 3 phase. Get into rock and mountianous rough terrain and that cost can triple. As a general rule underground distribution costs three times as much to build as overhead. When you get into transmission class contruction (69KV and up) underground is not an option. It does exist up to about 138KV but the costs are staggering as high as $1000/foot.
BAM! I don't know any of that... I just know rough numbers. :)

People want my plant down town shut down. The board agreed to expidite installing a 115kv line to be able to manage voltage w/o the plant. They figured 100 million. It's through the city... Overhead towers are completely out of the question. Well now they are really looking... Last number I heard was $300 million and rising. That's half a power plant. Ya.... I'm not seeing that line getting done. But ya... Anti coal idiots... Well just bulldoze it and put in a line....
 

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I have been a lineman for an electric utility for 26 years. A 40' class 5 ditribution pole costs $500. Approx. 25 poles per mile. My crew and I can harware and set a pole in 30 miniutes. (New construction poles already stake dropped.) Overhead 1/0 ACSR bare conductor costs about $0.60/foot. Two wires for single phase so $1.20/foot four wires for 3 phase= $2.40/foot. 4/0 aluminium 15KV underground distribution cable costs about $9.50/foot installed in good soil on relativily flat ground. That's one cable for single phase, multiply by three for 3 phase. Get into rock and mountianous rough terrain and that cost can triple. As a general rule underground distribution costs three times as much to build as overhead. When you get into transmission class contruction (69KV and up) underground is not an option. It does exist up to about 138KV but the costs are staggering as high as $1000/foot.
isn't 1/0 to 4/0 apples to oranges? would 4/0 require a larger pole as well as more conductor material?
the quotes I've seen for poles were MUCH larger than $500. They must be using bigger poles around here or prices have dropped dramatically recently. Regardless, its all underground at my new place. not a single outage in the almost 3 years I've been here, not even a flicker when lightning struck a tree less than 20' away from my house.
 

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isn't 1/0 to 4/0 apples to oranges? would 4/0 require a larger pole as well as more conductor material?
the quotes I've seen for poles were MUCH larger than $500. They must be using bigger poles around here or prices have dropped dramatically recently. Regardless, its all underground at my new place. not a single outage in the almost 3 years I've been here, not even a flicker when lightning struck a tree less than 20' away from my house.
As far as poles go are you hearing replacement cost? Pole+labor+truck and equipment time. Ya replacement of that 40' $500 pole can go up quickly if you hit it and break it off at 2 AM and myself and 3 other linemen @$60/hour plus $180/hour for a derrick and $150/hour for a bucket truck plus any line hardware have to go out on OT and replace it in a blizzard/thunderstorm. Transmission class poles are more expensive. A 70' class 2 red cedar costs about $3000, but as I said before underground transmission by comparison makes the poles and wire look cheap. The prices I was giving were for new construction not replacement. And 1/0 overhead is generaly equivalent to 4/0 urd current capacity due to overhead bare wires ability to disapate heat in the open air. Once underground gets loaded to capacity it starts to generate heat that can't disapate fast enough and the increasing heat causes increased resistance and ohms law takes over and bad things happen.
 

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I was talking new install. I'll admit it was awhile ago, but I had heard numbers much higher than that more than once from more than one source. The prices I saw for 60' poles were closer to what I remember hearing.

1/0 open may be approximate to 4/0 in ducting, but not direct burial. Direct burial isn't as good as open air, jacketed, but it does do a decent job of dissipating heat. Looks like 80%+ amp capacity for URD direct burial vs. open air ACSR. I didn't bother looking at resistance before I closed that window, but I would assume there would be some long term savings there to.
 
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