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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Greetings ladies and gentlemen,

It's been a while since my last live fire practice and my last dry fire laser practice, so I did both this week. Plus I'll be attending another Handgun Skill Builder Workshop tomorrow. I've been kicking butt with all the projects around the house so I wanted to relax and have some fun.

I practiced for about 90 minutes this past Monday with the shot timer on the G-Sight app, drawing from concealed. I set it up for sessions of five shots and practiced from seven yards using my EDC XD9. I collected a few of the sessions and made a little slide show for you. I'd like to take another half second off my time and be more consistent.


Then today, after getting supplies and materials ready for another home project I'm finishing on Saturday afternoon (after I return from the range), I spent a couple hours at my local indoor range, Rancho Magnum Range, to practice some marksmanship.



I had just set my gear in my lane when a cease-fire was called. One of the range ladies had to fix the target runner on Lane 3.



It was busy on a Friday afternoon, all the lanes were full right after I got there about 3pm. But then it cleared out by 4:30. They close at 6pm on the weekdays. Today I shot about 120 rounds of Aguila .22 to warm up. Then I shot 100 rounds of Federal in my XD9. Nothing malfunctioned today.



When my friend Tony shot this pistol in Las Vegas he mentioned that the front sight might be too high. I'm starting to believe him. The "equal height" tends to make it shoot low. I swear. So I started putting the front sight dot above the rear sight dots and it seemed better.



After shooting the 10 orange square, I tossed a few magazines at head shots. I'm all over the place. I think the rear sight may need a little windage adjustment.



OK, that's 80 rounds on this target. Let's try something else. I taped on some small USPSA targets and made sure all the previous holes were covered, then sent it out to ten yards.



I shot at the A section in center mass. Yick! Perhaps I should've moved the target a little closer for this P22 and made sure the POA was somewhere in the vicinity of POI.



OK, that's 120 rounds out of the P22. It's time to see what I can do with my EDC. I taped up some fresh B-8 targets and ran them out to ten yards. A little farther down the post I'll show you a video of me shooting the first B-8, the upper left.



Yep, this is about how these old eyes see the situation without my SSP Top Focal shooting glasses.



Here's the first four B-8 targets. Only three of them have one shot out of the 8 circle. The first one, upper left, is about 90-ish points, right?



Here are the next four B-8 targets. Is this one a 92?



Hey! This one looks like a 93.



Looks like I'm getting cocky. This one's a mess. Sorry.



So I tried to get my groove back for the last one in this quartet. Is this another 93?



Drat! I'm out of B-8 targets for my last two magazines. I need to print some more. I sent a couple of B-4 targets downrange.



This one looks pretty good except for that flyer in the 4 ring.



And my last magazine had one more flyer outside the 4 ring. Drat. That 5 ring is nothing to be proud of either.



OK, on the whole, not bad for this old noob. I'm almost pleased with myself. This is a lot better compared to my last live fire practice at the Las Vegas indoor range. Now, as promised, here's a video of my first B-8 target from today.


This was a very deliberate slow fire magazine. I noticed that I'm resetting my off hand between shots. I'm not sure if that's a nervous habit or if I'm actually correcting something before the next shot. I'll ask my instructor as soon as I have a chance.

Anyway, it was a fun session and I'm looking forward to more fun tomorrow. It's going to be quite chilly up in the foothills. I think all the snow will be gone but I wish I would've picked up some warm shooting gloves. I'll have to rough it tomorrow. Thanks for coming along today and putting up with me. Happy New Year!


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Another great range report! :) Thanks!

OK, as-usual, I'll tackle the easiest stuff, first -


This was a very deliberate slow fire magazine. I noticed that I'm resetting my off hand between shots. I'm not sure if that's a nervous habit or if I'm actually correcting something before the next shot. I'll ask my instructor as soon as I have a chance.
That's a really excellent showing, @BassCliff, keep it up!

I'm also not sure why you're fidgeting. I'm almost wondering if that isn't a "nervous tick" kind of thing.

I believe I am seeing that your eyes are staying on-sights without blinking as the shots break - this means that you really should be able to be calling your shots, BTW, and that's where I want you to try from mow on ;) - and you don't appear to be peeking over the top: that's all EXCELLENT (provided that what I am seeing is actually true - it's hard, from the video, and it's not your fault).

With your hands, it's harder to tell because they are just barely in-frame....and the front (finger) portion of your support hand is off-frame. I can't quite tell if your grip is actually breaking apart under recoil, or if you're just readjusting it out of some nervous twitch/habit. The latter is easy to correct: just don't do it. :D But if it's the former, you'll need to work on really locking-in that support hand grip at its ideal place at the very start, and then gripping hard enough so that you can really keep it there, throughout the string.

Ironically, while slow(er) fire makes it easy for us to visually spot what's going on with the grip, it makes it much harder to tell if that grip is actually breaking apart due to recoil. Instead, when you put the hammer down and shoot a fast string of successive shots, it'll be immediately clear whether you're able to maintain your grip or if it's falling apart, because as successive shots build, if you're not able to maintain that support hand grip, your shots will really start going to hell.

Now, it's definitely possible that your support hand is a problem - and I say this because from your targets, they're ALL trending left.

That said, what I don't know is whether if your shots are starting off centered and then march towards the left? or do you alternate ("self correct")? or is it actually that you start off printing in the center of that group, and then your shots open up to both the left AND the right as you go (maybe you actually do need a bit of windage adjustment)?

-----

RE: Dry fire -
I practiced for about 90 minutes this past Monday with the shot timer on the G-Sight app, drawing from concealed. I set it up for sessions of five shots and practiced from seven yards using my EDC XD9. I collected a few of the sessions and made a little slide show for you. I'd like to take another half second off my time and be more consistent.

I think I missed this from your earlier discussions of dry-fire, so I apologize: what's the distance and target-size data--points of your metric?

Under 2 seconds, from-concealment, on a full-sized torso at 7 yards is actually very reasonable. It's what you'll want to get to, with movement/stress added into the equation, but it is a very respectable standard for newer shooters. Each tenths below gets harder and harder, and requires more and more effort. If you can get it down to 1.5 seconds with the target size and distance template that I suggested above, you're setting pretty good.

That said, how do you get there?

First, realize that if you can break the shot simultaneously as you get to full extension, that's going to be a large part of the battle. Most beginner-level shooters not only spend quite some time refining the sight package once they've reached full extension, they also tend to only start the trigger path once they've actually achieved "near-final" sight package. Those steps cost a lot of time. Your sights should be nearly aligned by the time you get to full presentation - enough so that as you start punching out, you can take your shot as soon as you've determined that you can effect the level of precision/accuracy that you want, regardless of whether you're actually "perfect" in sight-alignment. Recall:


Do this exercise with your carry gun the next time you're at the range, so that you can start to get a feel for how much imperfection your sight picture can tolerate, given the target-size/distance-to-target metric. How does that correspond to the size of the "heart & great-vessels" 10-ring on your G-Sight target? How does it correspond to that generous "upper thoracic" score-8 triangle?

Trigger-wise, to be able to release that shot as soon as you've deemed that your sight package is "reasonable," you'll also need to start prepping your trigger much sooner. As soon as your muzzle is "on-threat" is when you should already be at that wall, so that you can break that shot as soon as your eyes tell you that your sight package is reasonable.

As you start in with the above exercise, you'll start to see that you can break your shots even before you come to full extension. And that's fine: remember, statistics show that the fight is typically won by the person who scores the first effective shot on-target. But for now, let's slow our roll, and let's make sure that you're actually AT full extension when that first shot breaks. [ Full reason: When you break that initial shot before you've come to full extension, you'll have likely also broken the shot before you've established your full firing grip. This means that you'll likely then have to remediate your grip before you can achieve successive shots, and this isn't something that we should work on, for now - it can be pushed to a later date. ] To achieve this, let me take you back to Joe Weyer's method:

Set your timer a par-time that's ridiculous, like 6 seconds, and aim to do a perfect draw, presentation, and to break the shot perfectly on-target just as you reach full extension, simultaneous to when your shot-timer beeps par. [ Go back and re-read that sentence as many times as it takes for you to realize that as that par time is sounding its "been" you've simultaneously reached full extension, gotten a perfect sight package, AND has broken the trigger. ]. Do this 10 times in a row - 10 perfect times...and any time you screw up, start this set ALL over. Once you got a perfect set of ten, scrub a half second off the clock and repeat for another set of 10. Rinse-and-repeat until you drop below 4 seconds, and scrub a quarter-second, instead. Once you drop below 3, scrub by 0.1 seconds per iteration of 10. Once you drop below 2, scrub by 0.05.

As I presented to you previously, this is exercise, done honestly, is extremely physically demanding. Getting that perfect rep. of ten when every mistake means that you have to start over, particularly at the beginning or after you've pushed through a plateau can be physically very, very rough. Don't push yourself too, too hard. Build up your endurance over time, and don't lose faith when it seems like you're taking steps backwards. It will come, I promise you.


----

RE: Live-fire -
When my friend Tony shot this pistol in Las Vegas he mentioned that the front sight might be too high. I'm starting to believe him. The "equal height" tends to make it shoot low. I swear. So I started putting the front sight dot above the rear sight dots and it seemed better.

<snip>

After shooting the 10 orange square, I tossed a few magazines at head shots. I'm all over the place. I think the rear sight may need a little windage adjustment.
Your next range session may be quite a bit of "work," and rather little fun! :)

I think it's time for you to really zero this gun.

IIRC, your wife likes to shoot this gun, too, right? Let's pick a compromise distance - like 10 yards? - and take a few different boxes of ammo with you, and really get bagged-in behind the gun (or shoot it off a rest, whichever is more comfortable and consistent for you) and work to see how the gun prints with different sight pictures and with different ammo.

Discuss with your wife what kind of sight picture she likes:

Line Font Circle Auto part Parallel

^ Use this image to discuss - keep the semantics of "combat sight picture," etc., out of the discussion, so that there's less chance of confusion.

There's no real right or wrong, it's mostly about personal preference.

One caveat is that if she wants to "align the dots," you'll really have to be sure that your dots align. With most sights, we shoot the "body" of the sights, not the "dots" or other markings:

Rectangle Font Circle Technology Symbol




-----

RE: the B8 -

<snip> Is this one a 92?

Yup!!!

For those who are reading along and have never played with a B8.....

Scoring, if you want to go by the "rings" --

For ten shots taken, if all ten land in the 10 ring, that makes for 100 points. Anything landing in the "X" is called just that - so with all ten shots in the X, one would say "100, 10-X."

Each shot landing in the 9 ring is a "minus 1" or "down 1."
Each shot landing in the 8 ring is a "minus 2" or "down 2."

So, the easiest way to do this is to just subtract, counting everything outside the 10 ring.

For your target above, you had two in the 8 ring (the shot at the 7-o'clock-ish looks like it's breaking the line), so that's down 4. Then you had your in the nine (it looks like the 12-o'clock shot and the one at the 7-o'clock-ish are actually clipping the 10 ring's line), bringing you up to a total of down 8.

A solid performance!

See? Getting better, right? :)

Great job! Keep it up! (y)

And don't get discouraged if you should slide back at any time. That's just the way of any athletic endeavor.
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi @TSiWRX,

Thank you for that generous post. There's a lot to consider here. I'm in the midst of some home improvement projects so when I have time I'll go through your questions and offer clarifications. It'll be good for me to think more critically and analyze my performance and techniques. I had another great training session today and after class the instructor was kind enough to look over my shoulder while I shot some steel. (Fun!) He noticed a couple of things that may explain my "leaning left". ;) Later!

Quickly re: the laser quick-draw practice above; The target was at seven yards. The "10 ring" around the heart is three inches, the "8 triangle" at the lungs has eight inch sides. Plus, I'll try to get a better angle the next time I video myself. I didn't realize I had such ugly elbows. 😲


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Your elbows are beautiful. :ROFLMAO:

3 inches is tight for a fast hit from the draw at that distance - that 8" triangle actually is pretty good, IMveryHO. Let's do this - aim for the very right-most tip of the up-going curve at the right of the "1" as our "aim small, miss small" template. That way, it should give you plenty of leeway to err, and yet still make very, very good hits.

[ Don't worry about this, now - but somewhere in the back of your mind, try to answer for me this question: At 7 yards, assuming that the threat is charging you, full-steam, if you quick-draw and commit to the full presentation, where will that threat be by the time you've made that shot? Work on your current template for the draw, but keep this in the back of your mind, so that we can explore later, when you're ready. :) ]

More to talk about when you've written your AAR for today's session, I'm sure! (y)
 

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Discussion Starter · #5 ·
Hi,

I finished my home improvement project for the evening so now I can relax, have a barley pop, and goof off on the computer. But I'll get back to your previous post later. I have another range report to post first. ;)

3 inches is tight for a fast hit from the draw at that distance - that 8" triangle actually is pretty good, IMveryHO. Let's do this - aim for the very right-most tip of the up-going curve at the right of the "1" as our "aim small, miss small" template. That way, it should give you plenty of leeway to err, and yet still make very, very good hits.
Sounds good. It seems you'd like me to practice aiming for the center of the triangle on that target. I like the idea of starting slow (six second par time) and gradually working on incrementally faster times. So far I've just been going at what's comfortable. Then when I'm too comfortable I try to push it. But, sure, I need more structure.

[ Don't worry about this, now - but somewhere in the back of your mind, try to answer for me this question: At 7 yards, assuming that the threat is charging you, full-steam, if you quick-draw and commit to the full presentation, where will that threat be by the time you've made that shot? Work on your current template for the draw, but keep this in the back of your mind, so that we can explore later, when you're ready. :) ]
At the workshop today one of the exercises we worked on was CQC in a couple of different scenarios, shooting from retention, target at arm's length, etc. Fun stuff.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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I finished my home improvement project for the evening so now I can relax, have a barley pop, and goof off on the computer. But I'll get back to your previous post later. I have another range report to post first. ;)
(y)

It seems you'd like me to practice aiming for the center of the triangle on that target. I like the idea of starting slow (six second par time) and gradually working on incrementally faster times. So far I've just been going at what's comfortable. Then when I'm too comfortable I try to push it. But, sure, I need more structure.
Correct - I want you to slow it WAY down, and really burn-in the "100% correct" neuromuscular pathways.

I want you to get to your holstered handgun, draw, present, and get that shot off simultaneous to when you reach full-presentation, with a perfect sight package. To get there, the only way is to start absurdly slow so that you can insure that each rep. is absolutely correct

If you find that you still can't guaranty that every step is perfect at an absurdly slow time, re-engineer the pathway by going in-reverse: i.e. to start with your sights on-target and with the trigger at the wall - and "deconstruct" it step-by-step back to the holster.

The idea is that until you can solidify that one absolutely perfect pathway, you're actually practicing multiple pathways that are just ever so slightly different..... Remember Bruce Lee's wisdom -

Microphone Gesture Sleeve Font Music


^ If you're introducing variances, no matter how small, you're at best not as efficient as you should be, and at-worst you're totally wasting X-percentage of your practice repetitions.

Consistency is *key."

A few years ago, I remarked on a closed FB Group thread to an instructor that I often felt rushed during the draw-to-first-shot, and that I know that this isn't supposed to be the case, because I've watched some really great shooters do this, and that it seemed like time literally slowed down for them:


I know the above is from open, but just look at what happens when you're really consistent!

And that was my problem: I wasn't consistent, so I would occasionally have some blistering runs, but at other times, that lack of consistency translated into my mind playing this "hurry up and catch up" game with itself - and as we all know, frenzied motions are just wasted motions.

Consistently efficient is where you want to be, and that Handgun Diagnostic that I took from Weyer and the Practically Tactical guys was eye-opening (regardless of whether if the student adopted the Weyer drawstroke).

At the workshop today one of the exercises we worked on was CQC in a couple of different scenarios, shooting from retention, target at arm's length, etc. Fun stuff.
(y) We'll go to that other thread to discuss! :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Another great range report! :) Thanks!
My pleasure. I wish more folks would do the same. I'm sure the community as a whole, at least us noob-types, would get great benefit from sharing tips and experiences.

I'm also not sure why you're fidgeting. I'm almost wondering if that isn't a "nervous tick" kind of thing.

I believe I am seeing that your eyes are staying on-sights without blinking as the shots break - this means that you really should be able to be calling your shots, BTW, and that's where I want you to try from mow on ;) - and you don't appear to be peeking over the top: that's all EXCELLENT (provided that what I am seeing is actually true - it's hard, from the video, and it's not your fault).

With your hands, it's harder to tell because they are just barely in-frame....and the front (finger) portion of your support hand is off-frame. I can't quite tell if your grip is actually breaking apart under recoil, or if you're just readjusting it out of some nervous twitch/habit. The latter is easy to correct: just don't do it. :D But if it's the former, you'll need to work on really locking-in that support hand grip at its ideal place at the very start, and then gripping hard enough so that you can really keep it there, throughout the string.

Ironically, while slow(er) fire makes it easy for us to visually spot what's going on with the grip, it makes it much harder to tell if that grip is actually breaking apart due to recoil. Instead, when you put the hammer down and shoot a fast string of successive shots, it'll be immediately clear whether you're able to maintain your grip or if it's falling apart, because as successive shots build, if you're not able to maintain that support hand grip, your shots will really start going to hell.

Now, it's definitely possible that your support hand is a problem - and I say this because from your targets, they're ALL trending left.
I tend to think that this is a "nervous tick" that I was using to "reset" during slow fire, trying to get each shot perfect. ;) Sometimes I'll even go back to "low ready" between shots just to clear my sight picture palate and check my grip.

*Oops, I see you've posted again while I'm typing this. But I'll continue this discussion first. :) *

So, back to my "nervous tick". Yesterday after class, when the instructor was looking over my shoulder while shooting at his steel, Chris did not mention anything about me "resetting" my off hand between shots. Either I wasn't doing it or he didn't notice while I was slow firing on the steel targets. (Did I mention shooting steel is fun?!?!) But I think he would have noticed.

That said, what I don't know is whether if your shots are starting off centered and then march towards the left? or do you alternate ("self correct")? or is it actually that you start off printing in the center of that group, and then your shots open up to both the left AND the right as you go (maybe you actually do need a bit of windage adjustment)?
I'm pretty sure the sights on my XD9 are right on. I getting to where I can pretty much tell where the shots are going, which ones are really good and which are bad, but not quite able to call them yet. When the situation arises, perhaps I'll ask someone more experienced, either a fellow student or our instructor, to take a few shots with my pistol to check it.

-----

RE: Dry fire -


I think I missed this from your earlier discussions of dry-fire, so I apologize: what's the distance and target-size data--points of your metric?
That is more or less a full size silhouette target, 7 yards, the "10" circle is 3" diameter, the "8" triangle has 8" sides.

If you can get it down to 1.5 seconds with the target size and distance template that I suggested above, you're setting pretty good.
That's the idea. I appreciate your guidance on how to get there.

First, realize that if you can break the shot simultaneously as you get to full extension,...<snip>...you'll also need to start prepping your trigger much sooner. As soon as your muzzle is "on-threat" is when you should already be at that wall, so that you can break that shot as soon as your eyes tell you that your sight package is reasonable.
[Break for church, now I'm back.] ;)

I have not practiced this way. Even with laser dry fire I have not had my finger in the trigger guard until the sights were on target, or at least very near. I will have to dry fire practice this procedure A LOT before trying it live. My XD9 trigger has a definite "wall" and it seems you're asking me to have the trigger at "the wall" long before full extension. About how far along through the draw stroke should I have the trigger at "the wall"?

As you start in with the above exercise, you'll start to see that you can break your shots even before you come to full extension...
Practicing CQC (see my latest range report) I've learned that I can fire my weapon right after it clears the holster. That was the second time I've received instruction on this procedure. It's pretty intense.


But for now, let's slow our roll, and let's make sure that you're actually AT full extension when that first shot breaks. [ Full reason: When you break that initial shot before you've come to full extension, you'll have likely also broken the shot before you've established your full firing grip. This means that you'll likely then have to remediate your grip before you can achieve successive shots, and this isn't something that we should work on, for now - it can be pushed to a later date. ] To achieve this, let me take you back to Joe Weyer's method...
Copy. The "quick-draw to full extension" procedure and the "shoot from retention" procedure are for different scenarios. I will practice both separately, perhaps a thousand times each. ;)

----

RE: Live-fire -


Your next range session may be quite a bit of "work," and rather little fun! :)

I think it's time for you to really zero this gun.
I've been using my P22 as just a fun plinker. But I really need to get it set up properly now that it's broken in and rarely has a malfunction now, unless I use really crappy ammo.

Discuss with your wife what kind of sight picture she likes:

View attachment 852483
^ Use this image to discuss - keep the semantics of "combat sight picture," etc., out of the discussion, so that there's less chance of confusion.
We both were initially trained, and like, to have the POA/POI like Sight Image 2 above, i.e. "equal height, equal light".

One caveat is that if she wants to "align the dots," you'll really have to be sure that your dots align. With most sights, we shoot the "body" of the sights, not the "dots" or other markings:

View attachment 852484
When I plink with the P22 and notice the "equal height, equal light" is shooting low, then I start using something similar to Sight PIcture 2 above, except with the middle of the front sight dot aligned with the height of the rear sights. If that's not working then I'll align the bottom of the front sight dot with the height of the rear sights. One of these days I will make it my mission to document some shots, from different distances (3 to 10 yards) and see what it will take to improve this little P22. It's a fun gun and I'm sure we'll enjoy it better once it's more predictably accurate. The aftermarket front sight kit I bought for this pistol actually came with three different height fiber optic front sights. I hope I can still find the kit somewhere in one of my range bags. :p


-----

RE: the B8 -

For your target above, you had two in the 8 ring (the shot at the 7-o'clock-ish looks like it's breaking the line), so that's down 4. Then you had your in the nine (it looks like the 12-o'clock shot and the one at the 7-o'clock-ish are actually clipping the 10 ring's line), bringing you up to a total of down 8.

A solid performance!

See? Getting better, right? :)

Great job! Keep it up! (y)

And don't get discouraged if you should slide back at any time. That's just the way of any athletic endeavor.
Sure, I count the line breaks as the inner score. :D I appreciate the encouragements and warnings. I think of this as a journey, ups and downs, smooth and rough. I'm just trying to learn it all, then keep what works best for me. I've noticed that in my Skill Builder class with eight or ten students, some of them very proficient, we younger shooters are barraged with many different procedures, tips, "how to", and finer detailed procedural minutia on how to get the bullet out of the muzzle better. I'm soaking it all in, taking notes, hoping to remember to try on all the stuff to see if it fits. I'm having a blast! (Pun intended.) :ROFLMAO: 🙄

Now let's go see the lessons you have for me in my latest "Skill Builder" range report thread. Good shooty fun!

Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Hi @TSiWRX,

OK, just watched the Pat McNamara video. Wow, he does make 1.65 seconds look ridiculously slow. That would be one of my better times! I don't practice much with my OWB holster. But I've also seen other instructors' videos, drawing from concealed, and making 1.6 seconds look slow.

I will practice very slowly to refine my movements, no wasted energy, and progress to faster par times only after perfecting the previous par time. This will take some time. I'll need a consistent practice schedule. Hopefully I won't drive Mrs. BassCliff crazy. 😵


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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OK, just watched the Pat McNamara video. Wow, he does make 1.65 seconds look ridiculously slow. That would be one of my better times! I don't practice much with my OWB holster. But I've also seen other instructors' videos, drawing from concealed, and making 1.6 seconds look slow.
^ Right?

And then there's the real freaks (OK, more like just really, really skilled folks) like Kirk Clark, who has managed to accrue the hat-trick of a F.A.S.T. Coin from Earnest Langdon (who took over administration of the test after ToddG passed), a Turbo Pin via the Gabe White Technical Skills Tests, and a Black Belt Patch from Jedlinski's Modern Samurai Project - and (seriously! what the ever-loving frick!!!!) is the current (tie) title holder on the Casino Drill by Tom Givens.......

Slow is smooth.
Smooth is fast.
But sometimes slow is just damned slow, and you've really gotta push for speed to actually get fast!

The Zen is understanding that smoothness comes from efficiency, and it's the EFFICIENCY that's actually fast - like how a surgeon moves his/her fingers and hands during surgery, all while you're split open and losing blood..... efficiency breeds speed.

And the only way to get efficient is to do things slow enough to know where you are not. ;)

I tend to think that this is a "nervous tick" that I was using to "reset" during slow fire, trying to get each shot perfect. ;) Sometimes I'll even go back to "low ready" between shots just to clear my sight picture palate and check my grip.

*Oops, I see you've posted again while I'm typing this. But I'll continue this discussion first. :) *

So, back to my "nervous tick". Yesterday after class, when the instructor was looking over my shoulder while shooting at his steel, Chris did not mention anything about me "resetting" my off hand between shots. Either I wasn't doing it or he didn't notice while I was slow firing on the steel targets. (Did I mention shooting steel is fun?!?!) But I think he would have noticed.
My apologies - I have a knack for ninja-editing. 😬

I would think that Chris would have noticed, too: from the comments he gave you on the other thread, I'd say he is definitely very observant. It's possible that this is something you only infrequently do - or that even by just mentioning it here (and I noticed that someone on the B8 DevGru noted it, too) that you've managed to kick yourself out of the tick.

Resetting to a ready-position is no big deal. The tick is worrisome only because it may cause you to have a less-than-ideal base when you start to really be able to work on rapid follow-ups or because it could be hiding a baseline grip deficiency.

I'm pretty sure the sights on my XD9 are right on. I getting to where I can pretty much tell where the shots are going, which ones are really good and which are bad, but not quite able to call them yet. When the situation arises, perhaps I'll ask someone more experienced, either a fellow student or our instructor, to take a few shots with my pistol to check it.
Yes, letting others shoot it would be good, too, but don't forget that we don't all "see" the same way. Rifles are typically zeroed for an individual shooter - and while the way we align our eyes behind the gun/sights means that this effect isn't as pronounced on pistols, at the typical ranges at which we shoot them, it can still bias things just enough.

RE: starting to shave time - draw-to-first-shot
I have not practiced this way. Even with laser dry fire I have not had my finger in the trigger guard until the sights were on target, or at least very near. I will have to dry fire practice this procedure A LOT before trying it live. My XD9 trigger has a definite "wall" and it seems you're asking me to have the trigger at "the wall" long before full extension. About how far along through the draw stroke should I have the trigger at "the wall"?
Correct - I'm asking you to do a "no-no" by newbie rules....but you're now at the stage that you're no longer a novice/beginner: you're chasing speed, and that's not something that a novice can safely do. But for someone who by now has a VERY solid set of fundamentals in terms of safety, it's time for you to start bridging your skill-set between beginner and intermediate, and start to leave that "beginner" tag behind, too.

The big issue here is of-course safety.

And we need to go forward with the understanding that you will -NOT- be abridging safety in the search for speed. To do so would be dangerous, at-best.

So exactly when do you get on the trigger? When do you take the trigger to the wall, where a hard thought would then be the only thing necessary to break the trigger and send the shot downrange?

Let's go there by first taking into account what you'd already written.....

Practicing CQC (see my latest range report) I've learned that I can fire my weapon right after it clears the holster. That was the second time I've received instruction on this procedure. It's pretty intense.

<snip>

Copy. The "quick-draw to full extension" procedure and the "shoot from retention" procedure are for different scenarios. I will practice both separately, perhaps a thousand times each. ;)
Bingo.

When you get on the trigger and how far you get on that trigger is subjective - it depends in large part on when you are thinking about taking the shot, which in-large part depends on the threat scenario.

If I'm intending on shooting from-retention, my finger is inside the trigger guard as soon as I've cleared the holster (and insured that I'm not muzzling part of my own anatomy or anything else I'. not supposed to be muzzling [i.e. maybe there's a child at my feet?]). Here, maybe I'm not consciously touching the face of the trigger at all, as I know that no matter how hard I slap that trigger, within the context of the entangled fight, I simply not missing because of trigger control.

But let's say that the threat is insert whatever distance you think is suitable for you to reach full-extension. Here, you know already that you'll shoot when you've reached full-extension. Where do you begin to put your finger into the trigger guard? Where do you start to touch the face of the trigger? Do you go all the way to the wall, or just take out all the slack?

I'd say that there's a lot of different ways that you can attack that second scenario, right?

I don't really care how you do it as long as you do it safely, bruddah. :) And I think that you have safety down enough, now, that you know the difference between what's acceptable, and what's not. I'd like for you to, in the words of Frank Proctor, get out of your own way, and just just the supercomputer that resides between your ears do what it does best - "LETITDO."

The goal for you is to break the shot with perfect sight package simultaneously as you reach full extension. How you get there? To me, that's not all that relevant as long as you get there safely.

The goal is that when that par-time buzzer beeps, that you also hear that click, and that you're perfectly on-target when you do (and that you can insure that you don't disrupt that sight package from the perfection that you'd achieved before you broke the trigger!). The goal is for you to use up all the time getting there - that you're not blitzing through the first 98.5% of your draw-to-presentation and then just holding the gun on-target with all the slack out and at the wall, just waiting for that buzzer to beep so that you can snatch at the trigger at that instant. The goal is for you to slow-motion your entire drawstroke: everything from defeating cover garment to withdrawing the gun from the holster to establishing that support hand meet-and-greet and the dominant grip to pushing out smoothly, taking up the sack and getting to the wall (somewhere in all this, not necessarily here ;)) and align the sights and perfect that alignment and then to break that trigger precisely at the moment you get to full extension at the same time as the buzzer beeps.

In the search for speed, I would say that there's not one of us who haven't touched off a round before we got the muzzle or the sights to where we wanted them to be. But is that a negligent discharge? Assuming that we didn't shoot ourselves or otherwise violate any safety rule -i.e. somehow manage to chuck that round UP range- no: t's simply unintentional, as we still fully intended to discharge that round. So we self-correct - we back off a bit, and rinse and repeat.

I've been using my P22 as just a fun plinker. But I really need to get it set up properly now that it's broken in and rarely has a malfunction now, unless I use really crappy ammo.

We both were initially trained, and like, to have the POA/POI like Sight Image 2 above, i.e. "equal height, equal light".

When I plink with the P22 and notice the "equal height, equal light" is shooting low, then I start using something similar to Sight PIcture 2 above, except with the middle of the front sight dot aligned with the height of the rear sights. If that's not working then I'll align the bottom of the front sight dot with the height of the rear sights. One of these days I will make it my mission to document some shots, from different distances (3 to 10 yards) and see what it will take to improve this little P22. It's a fun gun and I'm sure we'll enjoy it better once it's more predictably accurate. The aftermarket front sight kit I bought for this pistol actually came with three different height fiber optic front sights. I hope I can still find the kit somewhere in one of my range bags. :p
(y)

First rule is to always have the right parts on-hand!

Sure, I count the line breaks as the inner score. :D
If I didn't count line-breaks, I'd be shooting flat zeros. 😬 Trust me, I talk a good game, but in real life, I ain't impressing anyone. 😅

I appreciate the encouragements and warnings. I think of this as a journey, ups and downs, smooth and rough. I'm just trying to learn it all, then keep what works best for me. I've noticed that in my Skill Builder class with eight or ten students, some of them very proficient, we younger shooters are barraged with many different procedures, tips, "how to", and finer detailed procedural minutia on how to get the bullet out of the muzzle better. I'm soaking it all in, taking notes, hoping to remember to try on all the stuff to see if it fits. I'm having a blast! (Pun intended.) :ROFLMAO: 🙄
:ROFLMAO: We've earned our right to make dad jokes!!!

Yup, the exchange between students is one of the best parts of taking classes. I find that I not only learn from others' success, I also learn from their failures in as much as I learn from my own.
 

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Hi @TSiWRX,

I really appreciate all the clarifications, explanations, opinions, examples, humor, and humility in your posts. It really makes me want to get out and practice more so I can make you proud. ;)

I hope you and I are not the only ones reading all this bandwidth we're wasting. If more folks are reading it, especially newer shooters, then I guess it's not a waste. Cheers! :)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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^ I try! :)

Now that you're starting to get beyond "beginner," you'll likely find that my shares will start to get less and less useful. Before-long, as with my shooting buddy here in NE-Ohio, you'll be the one teaching me things and helping me get over my shortcomings!!!! 😅

I'm perpetually hovering in the beginner-intermediate area simply because I really haven't had the time to devote to this sport/hobby as I should. Hopefully, when the little one goes to college in a couple of years, I will be able to get back at it like I did when she was an infant. :)

I'm starting to "bank" different viewpoints and different opinions and what-nots with you so that as you proceed into this next level, you'll have something to frame what you're being taught by any one instructor/cadre/school with what else is out there: both breadth and depth, that's what I'm hoping for.

There's A LOT of good instructional staff and schools out there: I urge you to take it all in, and then to let it boil and distill-down into what's truly applicable to how you live your life. 😊
 
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