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Discussion Starter · #1 ·
Greetings Patriots!

I've been looking forward to this trip for months. The BRPC is a nice facility where I can get a bay all to myself for $20. But today I brought my friend, who is a member here, so it's free! Pretty cool. Membership here is only $75 a year. That's amazing.



There are about a dozen bays here in the "public" section ranging from 25 yards to 100 yards. There's a "members only" section too. There was a little competition going on there today.



We were set up in Bay #2. I've been in this bay before.



I brought a couple of target stands and we picked up a couple from the range office.



It's going to be a fun day. The weather is cool.



I brought all my pistols. There were no malfunctions all day long, even shooting the Winchester steel case. The P22 liked the Blazer. We shot 22mag from my little cowboy gun.



Tony brought a couple of fun units, his G19 with a red dot and his 10" AR rifle that he built. It also had an optic. We had fun shooting each other's guns. I'd never used an optic before.





OK, let's get down to the targets. I shot quite a few B-8 targets, finally getting to try a real 10-10-10 drill with live fire. This was my first try, drawing from concealed. First shot at 1.7 seconds and last shot at 11.42 with two shots in the 8 ring.



This target was done in 7.76 seconds. My accuracy seems to suffer the quicker I go, three in the 8 circle and one outside the 8 circle. Oops. I didn't get the fist shot timing on this one because Tony's timer on his phone wasn't cooperating. We used mine most of the time.



The first shot was under two seconds, ten shots almost inside of 10 seconds but three shots outside the 8 ring.



I slowed down just a little and my accuracy improved a bit, more in the 10 ring but still two outside the 8 ring.



I really pushed this one but the accuracy really suffered.



Again, I slowed down a bit. I didn't make the 10 second cut but only one in the 8 circle.



Tony let me try out a full 30 round mag from his AR.



I don't know. Maybe this is a pretty good first effort. I should've slowed down, but it was so much fun! Shooting 223.



After our serious fun, we had some fun fun. We took turns shooting .22mag with the Rough Rider and .22L with the Walther P22.



After lunch I dropped off Tony and made my way to Ventura Munitions. I wanted to do some window shopping.



I was amazed at all the ammo on the shelves. It doesn't look like this back home. The prices were pretty dang good too.



That was my Saturday at the range in Las Vegas. I was happy to actually be able to shoot a real live fire 10-10-10 drill. Hopefully I'll be able to practice this more soon. One of my local outdoor ranges has a class twice a month that looks like it will fit into my needs. We'll see. Until then, thanks for looking. Be kind, act justly, love mercy, walk humbly, fear not, stay free.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 

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...The BRPC is a nice facility where I can get a bay all to myself for $20. But today I brought my friend, who is a member here, so it's free! Pretty cool. Membership here is only $75 a year. That's amazing.
Nice!!

Tony brought a couple of fun units, his G19 with a red dot and his 10" AR rifle that he built. It also had an optic. We had fun shooting each other's guns. I'd never used an optic before.
The AR probably not much to speak of, as the extra points-of-contact should make sighting relatively non-problematic....that said, I can't remember, are you cross-dominant?

Regardless, I bet that the G19 with the glass was a bit "different," no? :)

I shot quite a few B-8 targets, finally getting to try a real 10-10-10 drill with live fire. This was my first try, drawing from concealed. First shot at 1.7 seconds and last shot at 11.42 with two shots in the 8 ring.

My accuracy seems to suffer the quicker I go...

<snip>

I really pushed this one but the accuracy really suffered.
Congrats on your first!

Yup, the 10-10-10 is perhaps one of the easiest-to-understand demos of the (B)alance of (S)peed versus (A)ccuracy template.

As you improve your draw-to-first-shot, that will obviously open up some time, there. But for now, remember that things get easier when you have your first shot as perfect as possible - so don't rush and throw that gun out there....draw efficiently so that you end up where you want to be, because that will make the successive shots easier.

And towards that, you remembered to first establish your Natural Point-of-Aim, right? ;) I know, that's cheating, as the 10-10-10 is called "The Test" for a reason: it's supposed to be shot "cold," as a way to test your base skill level. But let's shoot it as a "drill" for now...and given this revision in purpose, remember to optimize your performance by establishing your NPA prior to starting the real drill. Insure that you're clear, line up, draw, and present-to-NPA. Fix what you need to do (typically, this will be stance) to get to your NPA, and then gas-up the gun and go.

Once that first shot breaks, it's all about recoil control. Remember, sights dictate cadence. You can only shoot as fast as the sights allow.

ideally, you'd drill all X's for 100-10x, but in-reality, you can accept some wobble in the sights.

Have a read at this, from Claude Wearner (The Tactical Professor) -


Hang up a fresh B-8, put yourself out a the 10 yard line, and shoot this little sight-misalignment drill so that you get an idea of what you can get away with.

Your sight package is what should dictate how fast you can go.

Now that you've established a baseline with that first 10-10-10 you shot, you can use the parameters of this "Test" to set up exercises for which you can get better at it.

Shooting any "drill" too much, however, not only can get boring, but you can also make it so that you're literally only good at the drill itself - and remember, this is supposed to be a "Test." ;) After you shoot this for a while, switch off it to something else to shoot as a drill, and let this go back to being a way for you to quickly (and routinely) assess your skill level, shot cold, as a true "Test."

So how do you get better at "The Test," without shooting it repeatedly as a drill?

The Bill Drill really never made much sense to me until Defoor's explanation:


^ Note that with the Bill Drill, we're shooting regardless of the sights - it's based on cadence. But -and here's the important part- the underlying idea is that the sight package must be acceptable to achieve the level of accuracy/precision that you're holding yourself to (with that demo, Defoor's template was 5 yards, 6-inch circle). Yes, you're shooting to-cadence, but that's not the goal - the goal is for you to realize that the sights have to "be there." The cadence is merely a way to help the shooter "get there." The sights are the goal.

Do what you have to do to mitigate recoil so that your sights are within acceptable when you break those successive shots: this will translate directly into better performance on the 10-10-10....as well as everything else. :)

I can't find this online anymore, but at one point, Travis Haley and Ron Avery were teaching pistol together, and they put out a series of two free YouTube videos which demonstrated a "Tigerstripe Drill" that utilized two targets - the same 3/4-inch wide horizontal line centered inside a 5-inch box - rotated 90-degrees for each of the two phases of the drill (thus, one drill ran with the box vertical, the other, horizontal). The idea was for the shooter (at 3-to-5 yards) to shoot as rapidly as possible while keeping all shots within the black of each line: the idea is that with each iteration, we correct for either the left-right deviation with the vertical line, or the up-down deviation with the horizontal. If you can find these two videos somehow, they're worth your undivided attention.

Recoil control allows you to shoot faster by getting the sights where they need to be, faster: whether you subscribe to the line of thinking that the sights should not lift at all or if you subscribe to the philosophy that it's not about how much or little the sights jump, but rather that they return as fast-as-possible to where they should be.

Tony let me try out a full 30 round mag from his AR.



I don't know. Maybe this is a pretty good first effort. I should've slowed down, but it was so much fun! Shooting 223.

Fun, right? :D

So, here's the thing - you really can't tell anything about accuracy/precision with the AR from-standing, freestyle at the 25, and also without some other issues (such as ammo, etc.) being part of the discussion. There's just too much going on.

After our serious fun, we had some fun fun. We took turns shooting .22mag with the Rough Rider and .22L with the Walther P22.
If this kind of range setup is going to be more available to you, and if the range allows reactive steel targets, .22LR-only dueling trees don't cost very much money, are rather lightweight and compact for stowage, transport, and setup, and are A LOT of fun. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi,

Thank you @TSiWRX. You've got a lesson or two in every post. I did a few POA drills before and during my B-8 targets. It's a good "centering" exercise.

What I noticed about the optics was that my Top Focal glasses seem to get in the way. I can't use the diopter when looking through the red dot. Things don't focus properly. Tony set up his optics to use co-witness, get everything aligned and it'll hit where you aim. It took me getting used to aligning my eyeball with the barrel on the rifle in order to aim properly. It was fun. I suppose I'll opt for and optic on a future pistol and/or rifle.

@HngnHunter, it was a blast having that bay just for the two of us. but we didn't shoot from 100 yards. Eventually, with the proper tools/training/practice I'll start shooting longer distances. For now, with my self-defense focus, I'll stay mostly at 10 yards or closer. I have practiced with my pistol a little bit from 25 yards, but I need a LOT more practice. ;)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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^ Nothing changes from the 10 to the 25. :)

Nose Eyebrow Jaw Sleeve Gesture


There is no far target. There is no near target.

There is just small target or big target. ;)

If you can shoot a 3/4 inch dot at 3 yards (and I know you can, from your past targets), you can shoot a B-8 at the 25. You may not get the score you want (at least not initially), but brother, you -CAN- do it.

Putting together a string of ten shots at the 25 will require patience, and that may be a bit much to demand of a newer shooter now, but I would urge you to really give it a try at your next opportunity (with ammo you know to work well in your gun; typically with duty/defensive-grade handguns, anything 10 and in won't really show much difference, but by the time you push out to the 25, ammo-induced issues can potentially really make themselves known: you don't need to have "match grade" ammo, but you should have ammo for which you know will produce good external ballistics at the 25 yard line [or at whatever distance you do attempt to shoot]), so that you can establish a baseline, just like you did this time with the 10-10-10.

As for the dot, ah, I didn't think about that - indeed, having corrective eyewear can cause issues. That's something that you'll be better able to figure out for yourself once you get your own personal setup. Alternatively, next time before you go with your friend, first explore what eyewear you will need to bring along (dry fire for this should more than suffice), so that you can really experiment a bit with the "Windows" gun. ;)
 

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Hi,

Thank you @TSiWRX. You've got a lesson or two in every post. I did a few POA drills before and during my B-8 targets. It's a good "centering" exercise.

What I noticed about the optics was that my Top Focal glasses seem to get in the way. I can't use the diopter when looking through the red dot. Things don't focus properly. Tony set up his optics to use co-witness, get everything aligned and it'll hit where you aim. It took me getting used to aligning my eyeball with the barrel on the rifle in order to aim properly. It was fun. I suppose I'll opt for and optic on a future pistol and/or rifle.

@HngnHunter, it was a blast having that bay just for the two of us. but we didn't shoot from 100 yards. Eventually, with the proper tools/training/practice I'll start shooting longer distances. For now, with my self-defense focus, I'll stay mostly at 10 yards or closer. I have practiced with my pistol a little bit from 25 yards, but I need a LOT more practice. ;)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
Just ribbin ya on the 100 yds. But what’s funny is when we were growing up and shooting on the farm 25 yds was considered Close. I guess we didn’t know better but we regularly shot at small targets like sparrows & starlings at 25-60 plus. When we got together with other guys (one a police officer) and would set up the targets they were like Whoa! That’s a long shot!! One cop said they did most of their practice at 7-12 yards and we got a pretty good laugh out of that. I don’t know why but I’ve always had more trouble hitting a target than say a pop can, clay pigeon ect. Actually a piece of white paper with a black target paster works best for me. Guess it gives a smaller area to focus on and did I also say I’m cheap? Over the years I’ve gotten out of practice but after a little time it comes back. I think many of us over-think all of this stuff. My wife once picked off a robin on a power pole with a Crosman CO2 pellet pistol. I handed it to her and told her to shut that yackin bird up. She drew on it and poof, all done! She had maybe shot that gun 5 times or so before. Sure you didn’t get all your shots in the black, but just hold that target up on your chest and ask yourself if you would want to be standing out there? I sure as h*ll wouldn’t!! 😳
 

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^ I definitely think that not having an aiming point is the harder target to shoot. :)

The TangoDown EAG Target, for-instance:


Close-up -where the guide marks are visible- it's rather easy to shoot....but put a little distance into it, and it becomes a deceptively tricky target, especially if the side "cheats" are folded-away.

The old drill of handing a shooter a blank sheet of 8 and 1/2 by 11" and telling them to put 10 shots on the paper all through one hole really can bring out some shooter's deficiencies.

I find that many hunters in-particular are taught the mantra of "Aim Small, Miss Small" very early on in their lives, and I really think that it helps tremendously in terms of getting that absolute precision and accuracy. It's something that I know I cite frequently, both written and verbal.

One local instructor who passed away a few yeas ago is, for some strange reason, "that voice in my head," and one of the things that I hear him whisper to me is "Aim Small, Miss Small."
 

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Discussion Starter · #8 ·
Thanks guys,

Just ribbin ya on the 100 yds. But what’s funny is when we were growing up and shooting on the farm 25 yds was considered Close...
Not to worry, I deserve the razzing. I've been doing more self defense training, hence the shorter distances. If someone is 25-100 yards away they are not really an immediate threat, unless they have an AR. :oops: But I will start pushing the distances when practicing for pure marksmanship.

^ I definitely think that not having an aiming point is the harder target to shoot. :)
I seem to do a little better with my 2" circle target. I'm going to bring a few of those next time and shoot a set of plain slow fire accuracy just for fun. That big black B-8 target makes it too easy for me to just "aim for somewhere in the middle".




Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 

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I seem to do a little better with my 2" circle target. I'm going to bring a few of those next time and shoot a set of plain slow fire accuracy just for fun. That big black B-8 target makes it too easy for me to just "aim for somewhere in the middle".
Yup. ;)

If you can make out that center X from the 10 yard line, aim for not just it, but the very center of it. Aim for the sole atom occupying that very center of the X.

Refine your aiming point as much as you can, even if that's just imagining that fine gradation or point.

That is the spirit of "Aim Small, Miss Small."

The idea is that since you're aiming for such a fine point, when you miss it, your error will also be lessened. Aiming for that X, maybe you fall just outside of the 10 ring...but if you aim for only the black, when you miss, what will you fall out of? ;)
 

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Discussion Starter · #10 ·
Hi,

If you can make out that center X from the 10 yard line...;)
Ha! That's a BIG IF. :ROFLMAO:🤓

But yes, I really need to practice that concept more during live fire practice. Even if I can't actually see the little "X" in the middle, I should imagine where it is. Maybe I'll go to the craft store and get some little stick-on letters that would be higher contrast. I seem to do a little better when practicing laser at home. I forget to bring those same techniques to the live fire practice. I need a little more discipline, I suppose.

There is a local range that has skill building courses every 2nd and 4th Saturday. I'm going to hit a few of those classes and try to learn something. They seem to cater to my "intermediate" self defense skills and will hopefully improve them. I'll let you know. ;)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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^ Definitely, at this stage of the game, don't be afraid to "cheat" a little. :) Help yourself establish great habits, and you'll find that it pays off in the long-run.

It's so much easier to get it right, straight-away when you're still "fresh slate," rather than having to break bad habits later.

I've been there!!!!!
 
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