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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)
Greetings Patriots!

Last weekend while playing my gig in Las Vegas my friend and I paid a visit to the Boulder Rifle and Pistol Club where Tony is a member. I've been here once before but had to pay the visitor fee, which is quite reasonable. We used one of their target stands, I had brought three targets, we shot for three hours in a private bay, and it cost us nothing. How about that? It's nice to have well-connected friends. The BRPC seems way out in the boonies but it's just a short distance outside of Boulder City, near Las Vegas.



The RSO put us in bay #2 of the "courtesy" range. The members range area is off to the left behind a gate secured with an access card.



The target on the left belongs to the range. The two little ones in the middle are "gently used" targets left over my my visits to the Lytle Creek range where I shoot locally. On the right is my new target stand, only the second time I've used it. We moved this one around a little bit so we could do a little runnin' and gunnin'. It was nice being able to practice shooting at multiple targets. I'm not able to very often.



This was on the menu today. I was practicing with my XD9 and my new P22. Tony brought his Ruger Charger (with optic and light) so he could zero the sight. This was the first time he's been able to shoot it.



Here he is, the 147th fastest old noob in the West. I did put on my ears and eyes before we started making things go bang. It was a little bit cool to wear both of my holsters and pistols. I usually can't do that on the ranges at home.



Here each bay has a roof for shade, a picnic table, and a shooting table. I found it curious that the roof had extra ventilation.



Here's Tony working to zero his optic. IIRC it was a Holosun.



When he thought it was close he tried some different positions.



I tried one or two of the 15 round magazines. That optic is like cheating.



I think Tony needs to adjust it a little more. I was very low and right, but a consistent grouping. He eventually got it dialed in much better.



Tony really liked my XD9, said it was a great pistol. He's got a few G19 pistols and carries a G43.



My P22 really behaved itself today. We both had fun shooting it. Only two malfunctions out of about 300 rounds.



Here's one of my targets from ten yards with a couple magazines out of my P22.



Today wasn't really an accuracy day. Since we had the bay all to ourselves and I could wear my holsters I practiced drawing from OWB at 3 o'clock and from my AIWB. I shot at multiple targets, did some shootin' and scootin', and practiced drawing from concealed with Tony's shot timer. I "slow practiced" until I could get two shots off in 2.85 seconds. Because 'Murica!, here's a shot of Old Glory as I walk back from checking my targets.



Tony was tweaking the optic on his Charger all day. He says he doesn't really know what he's doing, just eyeballing it to get "close enough". I'll encourage him to watch a Youtube video or something.



After the circle bullseye targets were done I put up some 1/3 size IDPA and IPSC targets to shoot from 10 yards. That's like shooting the real thing at 30 yards, right?



The first couple of magazines weren't great. I was drawing and trying to get the shots on target quicker than if I were shooting for accuracy.



The next few magazines were better. I would draw and then put two or three shots on target as quickly as possible.



All in all, a very productive day. I got to shoot a new firearm with an optic and practice some tactical scenarios with my pistols. I'll be back in the area again the first part of October. It should be cooler then. It was hot and windy today. We shot 200 rounds through my XD9. It had one FTE, surprisingly. I almost want to blame that on myself being tired and dehydrated. I probably limp-wristed it. I'm going to arrange another training session soon for Mrs. BassCliff and I so I can forestall any bad habits I may be picking up. Tony has been shooting for a while and offered a few really good practice tips as he watched me. I'm happy to learn from everyone. Thanks for coming along with me today and letting me share my fun.



Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 

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Discussion Starter · #3 ·
Hi,

Am I the only one seeing a lot of missing images?
Oops. I forgot to "share" the folder. Try it again. Sorry.


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Discussion Starter · #4 ·
Hi,

Am I the only one seeing a lot of missing images?
Can you see this? (My glam shot.) :ROFLMAO:




Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 

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Man I love these posts! (y):cool:

It was a little bit cool to wear both of my holsters and pistols. I usually can't do that on the ranges at home.
Kinda reminds me of the late Louis Awerbuck -


If you can spare the money, his Panteao Productions video is worth the spend: Make Ready with Louis Awerbuck: Analysis of the Survival Mindset – Panteao Productions

Here's Tony working to zero his optic. IIRC it was a Holosun.....

<snip>

Tony was tweaking the optic on his Charger all day. He says he doesn't really know what he's doing, just eyeballing it to get "close enough". I'll encourage him to watch a Youtube video or something.

Modern (M)RDS are called "parallax free," but they're not - not really.

In zeroing, if your dominant eye is not perfectly aligned with the bore axis, you will see deviations between POA and POI. Most often, it's inconsistencies in terms of cheeking then gun and/or eye placement that causes issues - just as with traditional iron sights.

Doc Spear's video above addresses this in terms of absolute accuracy/precision with an MRDS/handgun setup, but it's applicable with long-gun, too.

Also, with the RDS, remember that what you're going for visually is THREAT FOCUS. Instead of focusing on the dot itself -which, even if your vision is perfect (i.e. you actually see a round "dot" instead of any of a number of typical aberrations due to imperfections either in your vision or are artifacts of your chosen eyewear: either way, this can make for inconsistencies in your visual fine aiming reference [unless you specifically picked a particular part of the aberration to be that fine aiming point - see diagram: Trijicon MRO going back for warranty. (post #38 in the thread, with a diagram from the Vortex Insta: I somehow can't link to the right post), note how with some aberrations, you can literally pick a specific part of it to be that fine aiming point, like the "comet's head," for example]), your eyes will fatigue sooner- apply correct technique and focus on the target/threat, allowing the dot to naturally be superimposed over your POA.

After the circle bullseye targets were done I put up some 1/3 size IDPA and IPSC targets to shoot from 10 yards. That's like shooting the real thing at 30 yards, right?
Well.....sorta....

You're in the B-8 Development Group on Facebook, aren't you?


PM me here on XD Talk if not. You need to be there.

This thread has replies from "Super Dave" Harrington, and is worth the read to understand what reduced-size targets can and can't do for you.

FWIW, I'm really pretty decent at smaller targets at closer distances.....but as distances increase, just like Super Dave wrote, I do start to fall apart.

We'll circle back to your performance on the reduced-size targets a bit later, but for now:

...so I can forestall any bad habits I may be picking up.
(y)

Yes - don't let yourself ingrain any bad habits. This is key.

The reason you want to go slow and get it right, now, is so that you can literally burn-in those neural pathways right from the git.

When I taught my daughter how to shoot her AR, I started it by insisting that she use the safety whenever she broke sight picture; including reloads. While whether to manipulate the safety "within context" is technically/tactically either correct or necessary wasn't my goal. I simply wanted her to get into the habit of manipulating that safety. She started with her .22LR M&P 15-22 when she was 11 or so. She's now 15, and while she doesn't shoot like a pro (she's only interested in shooting as a hobby), she throws that safety on/off with every bit as much authority as Pat Mac. 😅

The idea for the time being is to really establish fundamentals: to really ingrain those techniques.

And this then bridges into "speed."

Speed isn't about frantically snatching at your cover-garment and then throwing the pistol out there.

Speed comes from efficiency - from cutting out everything that's extraneous and un-necessary.

Watch the fastest shooters out there, and it seems like they're moving in slow motion. If you don't mind spending a few more bucks, Pat McNamara's "Pistol T.A.P.S" on Panteao is another great investment, and there's section where he proves this on a shot timer:


So, with that said.....

The first couple of magazines weren't great. I was drawing and trying to get the shots on target quicker than if I were shooting for accuracy.



The next few magazines were better. I would draw and then put two or three shots on target as quickly as possible.

Actually, I think you did quite well.

Sure, it may not look great on a reduced-scale target, but you should realize that all of your shots are on an 8 and 1/2 by 11-inch piece of paper!!!!!!

An A-zone on a USPSA is approx. 11 inches tall by 6 inches wide. An IPDA center "Down-0" is an 8" circle.

So, not bad, not bad at all!!! 🤩

At 10 yards, pressing for speed, drawing out of the holster, that's not shabby at all, particularly for a beginning shooter!

But now that I've pumped you up, you know what's coming next, right? ;) Like the Asian-American parent that I am, I've also gotta offer a bit of (constructive) criticism...... :p

You said previously:

...and practiced drawing from concealed with Tony's shot timer. I "slow practiced" until I could get two shots off in 2.85 seconds. Because 'Murica!, here's a shot of Old Glory as I walk back from checking my targets.
Was this the time elapsed to those first shots-target at 10 yards, as you pictured with the reduced-IDPA on 8.5 x 11" paper"

If so, that's great! You're actually getting a full metric:
(1) scoring target
(2) known distance
(3) timed

If not, then you don't really know what that "pressing for speed" above really is, do you? :geek:

So that's the trick.

In order to be able to really chart your progress, you MUST be able to account for the full metric each time you shoot. Otherwise, it is only -as we car-guys like to say- "bench racing." 😅

This, to-wit, is why something like the Hackathorn/Vickers "10-10-10"

ref: Who else loves "The Test"?

-and-


Shoot it cold as a test or shoot it as a drill, it becomes a very repeatable "standard" upon which you can benchmark your performance.

That shot timer, though..... 😅

841656


And finally, some words of encouragement -

Today wasn't really an accuracy day. Since we had the bay all to ourselves and I could wear my holsters I practiced drawing from OWB at 3 o'clock and from my AIWB. I shot at multiple targets, did some shootin' and scootin',
^ Don't see it like that.

Instead, make all of your "work" days on the range about absolute accuracy/precision, whether you're shooting bullseye at the 25 or even 50 yard line or if you're doing concealment work or "running and gunning."

The overarching goal should always be to - taking from Clint Smith - train towards the spectacular. One "Clintisms" is that mediocre shooting is often all that's needed to win a gunfight. A corollary to that is the Clintism that we train towards magnificence so that we can fall to adequate when under pressure.

If one can only attain adequate or mediocre performance when under training stress, what will he/she fall to, when faced with a real-life violent confrontation?

No-one ever wished they shot slower or were less accurate.

Yes, shooting more rounds, faster, inherently biases the BSA template and compromises accuracy.

That is true for everybody from the completely-fresh-to-shooting novice all the way to the most badass of ninja-killers and even top-tier competition shooters.

But our shots have to count, as Mr. Jack Wilson so bravely demonstrated: Skills Check: Distance Shooting

We should take up his clarion call to get more training, better training, better practice. :) So many of us have hailed him as a hero. Let's honor this hero's words and take up his challenge.

Don't get me wrong....

By all means, shoot to blow off steam and/or have fun with friends and family.

But when you've decided to "work," treat every round like you would in real-life.

No, not all will print in a cloverleaf. Especially not when you start adding in distance, time, or other pressures, But that should be your intent, every single time.

It's part of the mindset. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #7 ·
Hi @TSiWRX,

...train towards magnificence so that we can fall to adequate when under pressure...
Yes, excellent! Almost all of your posts are a full-blown training session. You're going to have to send me a bill.

Those last two 1/3 sized targets you quoted were not timed, just "sped up" on my part. I guess I'm taking it in stages, trying to learn bits and pieces of the whole process when I'm practicing like this. One of these days I'll invest in a real shot timer too, as a training aid. I've got one on my phone but it's not that convenient. Tony was using his phone app to time me. I was putting the hits on target, somewhere on the 8.5x11 page, but didn't really check the accuracy. Next time, I promise.

I also like that 10-10-10 drill but I forgot to try it last weekend. It would've been the perfect place. You have to rent a private bay at the local ranges for stuff like that. It can get pricey but I guess it's worth it.

I meant to bring B-8 targets with me. I will definitely print some and take them to the range next time, I promise. ;) I'll also check out that Facebook group. Every little bit will help this old noob. :ROFLMAO:

Thanks again. I'm going to send my friend Tony a link to this thread so he can pick up some pointers about his optics. I'll be in touch. :)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Yes, excellent! Almost all of your posts are a full-blown training session. You're going to have to send me a bill.
I'm just paying it forward. 😅 I've been where you are, and not too long ago at that. What little I can do to head you off in the right direction and to save any headaches/heartaches -not to mention expense- I will gladly try!

Those last two 1/3 sized targets you quoted were not timed, just "sped up" on my part. I guess I'm taking it in stages, trying to learn bits and pieces of the whole process when I'm practicing like this. One of these days I'll invest in a real shot timer too, as a training aid. I've got one on my phone but it's not that convenient. Tony was using his phone app to time me. I was putting the hits on target, somewhere on the 8.5x11 page, but didn't really check the accuracy. Next time, I promise.
(y)

In reality, if you've sped up the draw to where it's a realistic engagement, that 8.5 x 11" piece of paper is actually a very reasonable target for a lot of things. Shrink that down to an IDPA "down 0" or USPSA A-zone, and it becomes even better.

My personal take on accuracy/precision at-speed is different from a lot of folks and is based in large part on the teachings of some of my local-area instructors combined with what little experience I've had in force-on-force/integrated combatives, but the overarching idea of the three pieces of data necessary is always the same:

(1) scoring target
(2) known distance
(3) timed

This builds a metric, and it's what you can use to benchmark your progress.

I also like that 10-10-10 drill but I forgot to try it last weekend. It would've been the perfect place. You have to rent a private bay at the local ranges for stuff like that. It can get pricey but I guess it's worth it.
You can shoot it as a drill in various altered ways to satisfy range-limitations. Start from low-ready if not allowed to draw and/or throttle back your pace to finish the 10 shots at precisely 10 seconds to satisfy "no-rapid-fire" requirements.

This way, you can shoot it as a true cold test when you do get to a range that allows more freedom.

Best of both worlds. :)
 

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Discussion Starter · #9 ·
Hi,

<Re: 10-10-10 drill>
You can shoot it as a drill in various altered ways to satisfy range-limitations. Start from low-ready if not allowed to draw and/or throttle back your pace to finish the 10 shots at precisely 10 seconds to satisfy "no-rapid-fire" requirements.

This way, you can shoot it as a true cold test when you do get to a range that allows more freedom.

Best of both worlds. :)
Yes, that's what I was thinking. From low ready: <Bang 1> "One thousand", <Bang 2> "One thousand", <Bang 3> "One thousand", etc. I could begin to simulate that drill. It's probably better if I start slower anyway. But for tonight, more laser practice. ;)


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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Yes, that's what I was thinking. From low ready: <Bang 1> "One thousand", <Bang 2> "One thousand", <Bang 3> "One thousand", etc. I could begin to simulate that drill. It's probably better if I start slower anyway. But for tonight, more laser practice. ;)
Part of the trick with The Test is the way the shooter handles the element of time. (y)

You could measure it as a time/score metric, or it can be a max-points-possible exercise shooting to beat that 10-second par time (i.e. use ALL available time, what is the resultant score?).

It's a lot of fun to shoot, and once you have some metrics, you can start to see what you'll need to work on to improve.
 

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Discussion Starter · #12 ·
Hi,

Dang cliff you ALMOST look like a Bad Ass with the holstered pistol :p :LOL:
"Almost" is what I was going for. :cool::ROFLMAO:


Thank you for your indulgence,

BassCliff
 
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