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Discussion Starter #1

Some interesting points are made. I don't know if I agree on everything.
One thing is certain, I'd rather have my weapon than not.

dan
 

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Proof that Concealed Carry permit holders live in a dream world, Part One - YouTube

Some interesting points are made. I don't know if I agree on everything.
One thing is certain, I'd rather have my weapon than not.

dan
These videos only prove that you are not guaranteed to survive a gun battle... if you mistakenly thought bringing a gun to a gunfight made you invincible, then you are an idiot:rolleyes:

But like you said, I would rather HAVE a gun in a gunfight than just stand there and take it;)
 

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Im so glad when you go sky diving you get to do it all on your own with no training!
 

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Interesting Video

I do agree with the the training points that they make and how most people with a ccw, chl, ltc or whatever you call it where you are from don't train enough with a weapon.

Although, there are a couple of things that they do not mention that are kind of skewing the results of their test, at least in my opinion. As many people know here and the many threads on this form alone holster selection is very important and getting used to a new holster and being able to cleanly draw from it consistently takes a long time not a day as these people had. Also I don't know if this was just me but from the videos of action experiment the intruder shoots off a couple shots at the Instructor of the class then goes strait to the test subject. Now that's a possibility but ever time they know who has the gun and who to go for just does not seem realistic. Now from there point of view they could claim they would be able to see them trying to go for their gun but even the last guy who hides behind the chair from the cameras point of view there was no indication of him trying to pull out a gun.

Overall i just don't like the end message that this sends across that not having a gun is better than having one rather than if you have one you need to make sure you train yourself or get trained to be able to use it.
 

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There's two separate questions here:

1) How much training should be required to get a concealed carry permit?

2) How much training do you need to successfully respond to all manner of threats?

I think it's ridiculous to argue that #1 should equal #2, because it would make getting a CCW permit available only to the rich. At which point, people would just carry illegally, thus turning a bunch of otherwise law-abiding people into criminals.

I think you should make the permit easy and affordable to get, and then encourage people to get the training to develop and maintain their skills. And if you're really, honestly concerned that people who carry aren't skilled enough, train everybody. Make firearms training and self defense a required PE class at school. That way, by the time people are old enough to qualify for CCW, they've had years of training without having to shell out hundreds of dollars they may not have.
 

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Let me get this straight.....

Having a gun isn't guaranteed to allow to you to survive...

Isn't NOT having a gun placing you in an exponentially more lethal situation?

You don't HAVE to use a gun even if you have it if the situation doesn't present itself in a way to give you the opportunity to fire.

HOWEVER, without a gun you don't even have the option.
 

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Let me get this straight.....

Having a gun isn't guaranteed to allow to you to survive...

Isn't NOT having a gun placing you in an exponentially more lethal situation?

You don't HAVE to use a gun even if you have it if the situation doesn't present itself in a way to give you the opportunity to fire.

HOWEVER, without a gun you don't even have the option.
It's a strawman. They're arguing against the position that having a gun with you will always save you, no matter what, even with minimal training. Know anyone who believes that? Me neither.

I personally would have loved to see a cop in that scenario. They probably would have done better, but you're in such a highly disadvantaged position to begin with that your chances are low. If they showed that first, you'd have a sense of how difficult that scenario is.

ETA: Actually, I'd love to see how some IDPA or USPSA people would do in the same scenario, because that would be helpful. Can you acquire the skills and confidence required through shooting sports? I suspect those guys would do a decent job.
 

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I would like to see what would happen if you had actual CCW permit holders and if the bg didn't know who the one with the gun was. When I first saw this video I looked into the group that put it together. They have a clear, anti-gun agenda and they do not let any pesky facts get in the way. Go up the food chain and you will find George Soros. Chicago? Soros? Mainstream media playing along? Why am I not surprised.
 

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There are MASSIVE problems with the scenario presented by this video.

1. Extra long, confining t-shirts that make getting to your pistol difficult.

2. Gloves to make your access to the gun more difficultand your grip less certain.

3. The shooter was a highly trained police marksmanship instructor.

4. The student was ALWAYS in the same spot, so the shooter never had to look for them.

5. There was only one student carrying.

6. There was no control scenario run that would show the effect of not having a student with a concealed pistol.

7. The so-called "experienced" student had no experience with concealed carry, only range shooting.

8. In a situation like the Columbine shooting and the Virginia Tech shooting, the teachers and students knew there was a shooter loose because they could hear the shooting. They would have had time to draw their pistols and take cover to protect themselves and their fellow students.

Had they let students wear what they wanted, not told the shooter who to look for and where to look for them, not had actors purposely obscuring shots, used another untrained student as the shooter and allowed for a 100% prepared defense situation, you would have seen a much different video.
 

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Biased reporting. Any outcome can be achieved if you stack the cards in your favor. I could do this study and guarantee you the highly trained "active shooter" gets taken down every time if I put him in that same disadvantage. Not even worth being mentioned as a "study". Sadly, the mainstream doesn't see this the way we do.
 

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There are MASSIVE problems with the scenario presented by this video.

1. Extra long, confining t-shirts that make getting to your pistol difficult.

2. Gloves to make your access to the gun more difficultand your grip less certain.

3. The shooter was a highly trained police marksmanship instructor.

4. The student was ALWAYS in the same spot, so the shooter never had to look for them.

5. There was only one student carrying.

6. There was no control scenario run that would show the effect of not having a student with a concealed pistol.

7. The so-called "experienced" student had no experience with concealed carry, only range shooting.

8. In a situation like the Columbine shooting and the Virginia Tech shooting, the teachers and students knew there was a shooter loose because they could hear the shooting. They would have had time to draw their pistols and take cover to protect themselves and their fellow students.

Had they let students wear what they wanted, not told the shooter who to look for and where to look for them, not had actors purposely obscuring shots, used another untrained student as the shooter and allowed for a 100% prepared defense situation, you would have seen a much different video.
Exactly...it was setup and made to appear no matter what an armed response was not effective..and every one of the above bullet points is accurate....did you notice the "shooter" was dead center in the class...the firearms instructor came in and shot the teacher..then IMMEDIATELY went to the "conceal" carry student and didn't even shoot at any more students...yah realistic. Total slant and absolute bogus report!
 

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I could use their same baised events to prove that any licence (Pilots, drivers, heavy equipment, etc....) is useless. This is defenitly a cass of stacking the deck to get the desired results.
 

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Based on that scenario, the student is dead regardless of whether he or she is carrying a weapon or not. Like a lot of other people said, carrying a weapon isn't going to make you invincible in a a gun fight, but I like my chances a lot better with a gun than without one.

The part about the physiological effects of being in a gun fight was interesting, but even well trained police officer make mistakes in those types of scenarios. You can train all you want, but the truth is you never know exactly how your body and mind will react to being in gun fight until you're in the middle of one.
 

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Very biased reporting, agreed. Calling it an anti-CCW I think is a bit much. If anything, I think this was a great lesson in training. Not what the training should be to get a CCW, but the mentality that you will only be proficient if you keep your training current. But I think that holds true for any fine motor skilled activity.

Video was clearly set up for the student to fail. Confine his abilities with gear like gloves and a helmet. Reaction time is naturally going to be slower while sitting at a desk than a madman walking in the room with his weapon already drawn. On top of the fact that the student is always in the same seat and the instructor knows which seat that is and that he's armed. Why else would the instructor pursue someone crouching behind a chair, ignoring the other possible victims, rather than hit the easier targets around the room?
I agree, I would love to see a trained officer in this same scenario. I'm sure he may be a little faster on the draw, but also know the bullets wouldn't bounce of him either.
ABC should be kind of embarrassed about this report. And the general public should offended that they are being fed this biased trash. Unfortunately, many will eat it up along with some politicians.
 

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There are MASSIVE problems with the scenario presented by this video.

1. Extra long, confining t-shirts that make getting to your pistol difficult.

2. Gloves to make your access to the gun more difficultand your grip less certain.

3. The shooter was a highly trained police marksmanship instructor.

4. The student was ALWAYS in the same spot, so the shooter never had to look for them.

5. There was only one student carrying.

6. There was no control scenario run that would show the effect of not having a student with a concealed pistol.

7. The so-called "experienced" student had no experience with concealed carry, only range shooting.

8. In a situation like the Columbine shooting and the Virginia Tech shooting, the teachers and students knew there was a shooter loose because they could hear the shooting. They would have had time to draw their pistols and take cover to protect themselves and their fellow students.

Had they let students wear what they wanted, not told the shooter who to look for and where to look for them, not had actors purposely obscuring shots, used another untrained student as the shooter and allowed for a 100% prepared defense situation, you would have seen a much different video.

I agree with you 100%... on your number six though, they clearly had a control, but it was a control that guaranteed failure because the shooter knew who the CCW holder was and where they were going to be:rolleyes:

In reality there is no control that would show a scenario like this, because if you ran the same scenario 15 times with all different people every time, you would get 15 different results... now throw in a million different scenarios (the real world) and you will see that there is not really a way to test whether you will be successful, or dead in a gunfight... its whoever gets the best shot off first;)
 

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The thing you have to remember about journalists is their biggest problem isn't bias, it's laziness. Actually learning about how these situations play out and the role a defensive handgun might have in them would require a lot of research, study, and thinking, all of which would take time. Instead, they pick what to them seems like an easy angle, shoot some video, do some editing, and send it off into the world. Much easier than actually conspiring to mislead.
 

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It seems to me that this is loaded in favor of the shooters, since they are armed by the producers and know something is bound to happen, and know that no one is going to die.

Still, this isn't an argument against CCW as much as it is an argument for more training and an argument against people making too-optimistic claims about the positive benefits of CCW in all situations. And I absolutely hope that people watch this video and take it seriously and even too seriously, if it means they'll go out and get more range time because of it.

Better to be over-prepared than under-prepared.
 
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