As most know range time can be expensive... especially with a tighter budget. Dry fire is great, but I was wondering if anyone has tried using an airsoft replica pistol for some fun and cheap indoor practice.
brycewise
Yes and no.
Here's a recent post I made on GlockTalk - to provide context, the thread was originated by member Gauss Rifle, and it was originated in reference to the NextLevel Training SIRT laser-trainer; in the post I am replying to, he started to ask about the possibility of using airsoft to accomplish his training goals:
Are you looking to refine your trigger technique?
If that's the case, then you're probably better off sticking with dry-fire. Granted, I've yet to sample the XDm replicas (with the exception of a simple single-shot spring-powered Korean-made XD replica that nowhere approaches the quality or realism of any of my other airsoft replicas, so I won't even count this one), but to-date, I've yet to sample an airsoft replica (my airsoft GBB pistol collection includes Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks, Walthers, S&Ws, Berettas, and more 1911s/2011s than I'd care to admit) that has the same trigger path as that of any of their replicated/matching real-steel firearms.
Train to your airsoft? You're building a scar, right there.
However, if you divorce your desire to train towards the SPECIFICS of your real XD/XDm's trigger from this equation, and instead look at it specifically as pure marksmanship practice, then yes, airsoft is cross-applicable and completely valid. That is the case of Tatsuya Sakai, as I've cited above.
But nevertheless, it is still only valid within a limited context.
As I've pointed out above, airsoft's "external ballistics" isn't so hot. Even with highly upgraded/modified GBB pistols, "BB-IPSC" competitors shoot at very close distances - compensating for desired accuracy/precision by using scaled-down targets.
Are you looking to train recoil mitigation?
Airsoft GBBs, in this context, can only be equated with sub-caliber training - at best. Even the most highly upgraded/modified GBB, one that's specifically valved to deliver more blowback force and uses a heavy slide (be it metal or plastic) to add inertia will still barely deliver the recoil force that's commonly delivered via similar-construct .22 LR trainers (i.e. the Ruger SR-22, S&W M&P22, ISSC M22 for the Glock, etc.).
In this case, you'd do better to just bank the $200 for the replica: spend 1/2 of that on getting a couple of hours of solid instruction, and the other half on ammo.
Are you looking to train basic manipulations?
Even though the weight of many high-grade airsoft replicas comes close to the weight of their real-steel firearm counterparts, the weight distribution is often inaccurate. This is simply due to the way the airsoft is made - versus the firearm - and no amount of aftermarket "metal" replacement components for the airsoft will change this disparity (trust me, as I've mentioned before, I've got airsoft replicas that cost $1K+ that have parts that are custom machined from bar stock: even then, it's just not the same).
Additionally, neither double-feed nor stove-pipe stoppage reductions can be successfully performed on modern airsoft autopistol replicas (some will fail to be able to produce a realistic out-of-battery type stoppage, too).
That said, you just want an extra barrier of safety when you're dry-running your draws at home? Yes, a true 1:1 airsoft replica is great for that.
"Tactics?"
I addressed that in this GlockTalk thread ---> Training a team with Airsoft guns - Glock Talk
Also, you might find these past XDTalk threads helpful, too.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/195368-have-any-you-used-xdm-airsoft.html
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/general-sa-xd-xd-m-talk/170615-do-you-use-airsoft-train-home.html
The late Paul Gomez. Southnarc. Travis Haley. They're just some of the known names today that utilize airsoft for various training purposes.
But like any other tool, there are instructors/schools who believe in their value just as those who do not.
Bob Vogel doesn't do airsoft at all. It's hard to argue that he doesn't shoot well because of that lack of training. :lol:
But at the same time, look at Larry Vickers. He doesn't take much to sub-caliber training, and it was only the recent turn of events politically and economically that pushed him towards reluctantly opening up his carbine classes to sub-caliber.
There are also instructors/schools who don't see the value of dry-fire practice, at all, except for absolute beginners.
It's a tool.
Here's a recent post I made on GlockTalk - to provide context, the thread was originated by member Gauss Rifle, and it was originated in reference to the NextLevel Training SIRT laser-trainer; in the post I am replying to, he started to ask about the possibility of using airsoft to accomplish his training goals:
It's really about your end-goals.TSiWRX said:You really need to zero-on on your specific training needs: I think you started off this thread with that idea in-mind, but as you're getting exposed to more and more options, you've sorta let the gadgets take you away from your initial focus.Gauss Rifle on GlockTalk said:Sensitive content, not recommended for those under 18![Image]()
The relatively high cost of the SIRT is definitely a hurdle, however, it is an investment in a training tool that very nicely approximates the weight and balance of a loaded full/mid-sized Glock, and furthermore, the trigger can be tuned to better approximate that of "service/carry" Glocks. The dual lasers allow you to confirm your POA with one, while the other can be dialed-in specifically to "a true POI" for use either with an observer/training-partner/instructor.
The latter is quite important, as if you set the POI laser to register where you can actually visualize it flaring beyond the sights, that actually may be very different from the actual POA/POI difference you see in your pistol. This was very well illustrated in Lenny Magill's "Way Advanced Concealed Carry" DVD series (c.2003), where he demonstrated his laser-aided practice with a subsequent live range session: and for the first few shots of the range session, he was hitting low.
Is the fact that neither the SIRT nor the Laserlyte Trigger Tyme offers slide cyclic action a detriment to your training? Again, that depends. While a "gas-blow-back" (GBB) airsoft pistol simulates that action quite well, the actual force of the blow-back/recoil is quite minimal in comparison to that of the defensive caliber autopistol's. Therefore, at-best, what you're looking at is sub-caliber training. Additionally, with most airsoft replicas, the weight distribution will be noticeably off when compared to their real-steel counterparts (even with the use of more massive metal aftermarket upgrade components such as a ''metal slide" or even a "metal" cosmetic outer barrel sleeve), and similarly, the trigger path/action will present noticeable and oftentimes drastic differences.
Airsoft is great for things like Force-on-Force training, but it's really of limited use when it comes to marksmanship (at least as airsoft replicas exist in the common stateside market - case-in-point, Tatsuya Sakai - a Japanese national who won the 2004 Steel Challenge here in the US: residing in Japan, his experience had been purely airsoft up until just about a month before the competition: although this would seem to prove a case against my claims of airsoft replicas not being valid tools for recoil control and trigger control training, it stands to note that the types of airsoft replicas that are used for BB-IPSC and similar competitions in Japan and the Far East are *highly* modified and are not of the same quality as the airsoft available to the mass market here in the US, while, at the same time, the trigger assembly of the 1911/2011 platform is *very* similar between the airsoft and the real-steel, additionally, look at Steel Challenge guns in terms of their recoil). Even in terms of basic manipulations, you'll want to keep in mind that even with the best GBB pistols, they do not feed/fire the BB in the same manner as a real gun does a modern cartridge: stoppage reduction drills offer very limited cross-applicability.
Various pneumatic recoil simulators exist, but again, they're costly - and their application is again specific and limited.
Is dry-fire the end-all and be-all, then?
Certainly, it offers you first-hand "on the gun" trigger control training, but it does not shoot out a projectile (here, an in-chamber/muzzle laser-training device can be a remedy, but again, remember the POA/POI concern) nor will the slide cycle after you've broken the shot.
So, really, it's all about choosing what training tool works best for you, with your intended goals. Sometimes, this may require more than one tool to accomplish.
Are you looking to refine your trigger technique?
If that's the case, then you're probably better off sticking with dry-fire. Granted, I've yet to sample the XDm replicas (with the exception of a simple single-shot spring-powered Korean-made XD replica that nowhere approaches the quality or realism of any of my other airsoft replicas, so I won't even count this one), but to-date, I've yet to sample an airsoft replica (my airsoft GBB pistol collection includes Sigs, Glocks, H&Ks, Walthers, S&Ws, Berettas, and more 1911s/2011s than I'd care to admit) that has the same trigger path as that of any of their replicated/matching real-steel firearms.
Train to your airsoft? You're building a scar, right there.
However, if you divorce your desire to train towards the SPECIFICS of your real XD/XDm's trigger from this equation, and instead look at it specifically as pure marksmanship practice, then yes, airsoft is cross-applicable and completely valid. That is the case of Tatsuya Sakai, as I've cited above.
But nevertheless, it is still only valid within a limited context.
As I've pointed out above, airsoft's "external ballistics" isn't so hot. Even with highly upgraded/modified GBB pistols, "BB-IPSC" competitors shoot at very close distances - compensating for desired accuracy/precision by using scaled-down targets.
Are you looking to train recoil mitigation?
Airsoft GBBs, in this context, can only be equated with sub-caliber training - at best. Even the most highly upgraded/modified GBB, one that's specifically valved to deliver more blowback force and uses a heavy slide (be it metal or plastic) to add inertia will still barely deliver the recoil force that's commonly delivered via similar-construct .22 LR trainers (i.e. the Ruger SR-22, S&W M&P22, ISSC M22 for the Glock, etc.).
In this case, you'd do better to just bank the $200 for the replica: spend 1/2 of that on getting a couple of hours of solid instruction, and the other half on ammo.
Are you looking to train basic manipulations?
Even though the weight of many high-grade airsoft replicas comes close to the weight of their real-steel firearm counterparts, the weight distribution is often inaccurate. This is simply due to the way the airsoft is made - versus the firearm - and no amount of aftermarket "metal" replacement components for the airsoft will change this disparity (trust me, as I've mentioned before, I've got airsoft replicas that cost $1K+ that have parts that are custom machined from bar stock: even then, it's just not the same).
Additionally, neither double-feed nor stove-pipe stoppage reductions can be successfully performed on modern airsoft autopistol replicas (some will fail to be able to produce a realistic out-of-battery type stoppage, too).
That said, you just want an extra barrier of safety when you're dry-running your draws at home? Yes, a true 1:1 airsoft replica is great for that.
"Tactics?"
I addressed that in this GlockTalk thread ---> Training a team with Airsoft guns - Glock Talk
Also, you might find these past XDTalk threads helpful, too.
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xdtalk-chatter-box/195368-have-any-you-used-xdm-airsoft.html
http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/general-sa-xd-xd-m-talk/170615-do-you-use-airsoft-train-home.html
The late Paul Gomez. Southnarc. Travis Haley. They're just some of the known names today that utilize airsoft for various training purposes.
But like any other tool, there are instructors/schools who believe in their value just as those who do not.
Bob Vogel doesn't do airsoft at all. It's hard to argue that he doesn't shoot well because of that lack of training. :lol:
But at the same time, look at Larry Vickers. He doesn't take much to sub-caliber training, and it was only the recent turn of events politically and economically that pushed him towards reluctantly opening up his carbine classes to sub-caliber.
There are also instructors/schools who don't see the value of dry-fire practice, at all, except for absolute beginners.
It's a tool.
I'll chime in with a military point of view:
There is no replacement training for being able to pull a trigger when you're actually aiming at someone. Whether its blanks, sim rounds, paintball, or airsoft - its ALL worth while time, no matter as ridiculous as it may seem. You'd be amazed at how many people freeze when it comes time to pull the trigger...
I actually laughed at my old PSG who retired out of the Army and became a cop and said he trains with airsoft for "realistic" scenarios because other non-lethal rounds are so hard to come by....but the more I thought about it, the more it makes sense and I know he's just glad to get some training.
There is no replacement training for being able to pull a trigger when you're actually aiming at someone. Whether its blanks, sim rounds, paintball, or airsoft - its ALL worth while time, no matter as ridiculous as it may seem. You'd be amazed at how many people freeze when it comes time to pull the trigger...
I actually laughed at my old PSG who retired out of the Army and became a cop and said he trains with airsoft for "realistic" scenarios because other non-lethal rounds are so hard to come by....but the more I thought about it, the more it makes sense and I know he's just glad to get some training.
I agree with this 100% it's almost always a good idea to do Force on Force training whenever possible. MY AFROTC unit did some out in a swamp with paintball weapons and I too saw many people freeze up and freak out when the "bullets" started flying.
I say if you want to train your mindset and tactics for defense, airsoft, paintball etc. are all good ways to go.
Excellent responses here. I can only agree and don't have much to add.
I think the forms of training mentioned above (and any training for that matter) can be effective so long as you are cognizant about the strengths and weaknesses of that particular device/environment and adjust the focus of your training accordingly. As already mentioned, airsoft practice won't make you a better marksman, but it allows you to focus in a different environment, especially moving and acquiring live, moving targets. Typical ranges are really counterproductive for realistic firearms activities outside of marksmanship.
Working in some types of rounds where the actors feel pain is beneficial in training yourself through the fear and excitement as well as fighting through pain/injury. It is a good chance to see how people react when they are "hit". Do they stop, because they feel they are "dead" or do they keep going? It can be an awakening moment when we see the reality in ourselves under stress, even simulated stress. We like to think we would respond a particular way under a particular set of circumstances, but the reality is often way different when we react versus think our way through that. Paintball or simunitions training goes a long way in providing for these types of opportunities. Once we see what our real weaknesses are, we can respond accordingly.
I think the forms of training mentioned above (and any training for that matter) can be effective so long as you are cognizant about the strengths and weaknesses of that particular device/environment and adjust the focus of your training accordingly. As already mentioned, airsoft practice won't make you a better marksman, but it allows you to focus in a different environment, especially moving and acquiring live, moving targets. Typical ranges are really counterproductive for realistic firearms activities outside of marksmanship.
Working in some types of rounds where the actors feel pain is beneficial in training yourself through the fear and excitement as well as fighting through pain/injury. It is a good chance to see how people react when they are "hit". Do they stop, because they feel they are "dead" or do they keep going? It can be an awakening moment when we see the reality in ourselves under stress, even simulated stress. We like to think we would respond a particular way under a particular set of circumstances, but the reality is often way different when we react versus think our way through that. Paintball or simunitions training goes a long way in providing for these types of opportunities. Once we see what our real weaknesses are, we can respond accordingly.
^ Agreed.
The best part about airsoft use for civilian training is how relatively affordable the devices and supporting supplies are - as well as their safety threshold.
With a set of common paintball masks and goggles - and perhaps a scarf around the mouth/nose - airsoft becomes very, very safe for Force-on-Force use, even for people with little to no prior training.
Excellent-for-the-purpose airsoft GBB pistol replicas can readily be had for $150 or so, locally in most metro areas, and this can well translate to a class/squad of a half-dozen participants for well under $1K invested.
Unfortunately, as you and others have cited above, the motivating factor of pain is usually lost in airsoft.
While Simunitions would be best, here, but civilian availability is very, very limited. Paintball or dedicated trainers like the RAP-4 family of Force-on-Force tools would definitely offer more incentive to the trainees, but investment in such dedicated devices and their support gear will be more of a burden than airsoft.
Pros and cons to each, yet again.
The best part about airsoft use for civilian training is how relatively affordable the devices and supporting supplies are - as well as their safety threshold.
With a set of common paintball masks and goggles - and perhaps a scarf around the mouth/nose - airsoft becomes very, very safe for Force-on-Force use, even for people with little to no prior training.
Excellent-for-the-purpose airsoft GBB pistol replicas can readily be had for $150 or so, locally in most metro areas, and this can well translate to a class/squad of a half-dozen participants for well under $1K invested.
Unfortunately, as you and others have cited above, the motivating factor of pain is usually lost in airsoft.
While Simunitions would be best, here, but civilian availability is very, very limited. Paintball or dedicated trainers like the RAP-4 family of Force-on-Force tools would definitely offer more incentive to the trainees, but investment in such dedicated devices and their support gear will be more of a burden than airsoft.
Pros and cons to each, yet again.
my .02 c... i love my XDM GBB. I can practice drawing, target acquisition and firing indoors. The trigger is a little different from the real thing, and obviously recoil is significantly lower, but in close range POA/POI is right on with the real thing.
With to price/availability of ammo, I think anywhere you can get trigger time is a plus. what gun do you have where 2k rounds of ammo is $10?
With to price/availability of ammo, I think anywhere you can get trigger time is a plus. what gun do you have where 2k rounds of ammo is $10?
Updating with a cross-post: http://www.xdtalk.com/forums/xd-m-discussion-room-xd-m/209620-xdm-airsoft-line-4.html#post4305957
Over the Christmas holidays, I had my son and his girlfriend out to the ranch. They both wanted to shoot my pistols. The girlfriend had NEVER shot a either, a rim or center fired cartridge. After a block of instruction, she stepped up to line and damn near shot the bullseye out at 7yds.
I thought..Wow! :shock:, and asked her again about past experiences. All she had ever shot before was pellet and airsoft pistols.
So Id say that it would be excellent for introductions and maintaining trigger control drills.
I thought..Wow! :shock:, and asked her again about past experiences. All she had ever shot before was pellet and airsoft pistols.
So Id say that it would be excellent for introductions and maintaining trigger control drills.
This needs to be *very* specific, though....
The danger here is that airsoft trigger paths are typically nowhere near the same as their real firearms counterparts'.
With that in mind:
Is airsoft a valid training tool for introducing, teaching, or refining the IDEA of trigger control? Certainly. The same goes for precision airgunning - which is probably an even better venue/tool for this specific task.
However, if the goal of the user is to cross-train his real-steel trigger path via use of the airsoft replica, in the vast majority of cases, without specific (and potentially extensive) tuning of trigger mechanism of either the firearm or the airsoft, this is not going to be valid simply due to the inherent differences between the two platforms.
Not a criticism of your post, N.E. Tx.XD.
Just wanted to be sure that those looking to get an airsoft to train with understands the limitations of that system. 
Guys, I think OP just wants to be a better shooter, not Rambo.
OP, start reloading or start dry firing at targets on your TV. As Tsi said, the feel of a guns trigger and that of an airsoft trigger are different. Recoil is waaaaaayyyyy different! In order to shoot guns better, ultimately, you have to shoot guns more. Reloading is your best and cheapest option for that.
OP, start reloading or start dry firing at targets on your TV. As Tsi said, the feel of a guns trigger and that of an airsoft trigger are different. Recoil is waaaaaayyyyy different! In order to shoot guns better, ultimately, you have to shoot guns more. Reloading is your best and cheapest option for that.
Heck, I'm definitely no Rambo - more like Kung Fu Panda. :lol: I'm coming at this solely from the angle of a civilian "defensive" shooter - I don't have the background for anything else.
But that doesn't mean I don't want to get better. And for that, each tool has its place, with definite pros and cons.
:lol: I'm coming at this solely from the angle of a civilian "defensive" shooter - I don't have the background for anything else. But that doesn't mean I don't want to get better.
And for that, each tool has its place, with definite pros and cons.
That made me lol!!Heck, I'm definitely no Rambo - more like Kung Fu Panda.
But that doesn't mean I don't want to get better.
And I completely agree.
Hey, I've been called Kung Fu Panda more than once by more than one instructor!
But it actually really started with a friend of mine who, upon finding out that I did a lot of integrated combatives training, simply dropped-jaw and then burst out laughing uncontrollably for nearly 5 minutes.
To preface her response, she has 3 younger children, and had, at that time, known me for more than 10 years.
When she came-to, tears still streaming down her face, she apologized and said, "Oh, Allen, I'm so sorry...I just couldn't help it - a guy like you (I'm a laughing Buddah type: I lost my temper once in the lab, and all of my students remarked what a bad day that was because they've NEVER seen me angry :lol, all I could think about was Kung Fu Panda." :lol:
But there's more embarrassing stuff as well:
I have a lot of trouble "sequencing" movements. For lack of better words, I'm horrible at choreography, and I'm always one of the last students to "get it" when learning any new moves - be it unarmed combatives or with a gun-in-hand. One good example was at Costa's classes two summers ago. At one point, I got up from the prone on a single-hand/arm evolution, only to face a big silly grin on Costa's face: he laughed and said "Damn, Panda, like, Godzilla definitely chomped on you there! you were, like, all <imitating my spastic and uncoordinated body movements>!"
![Image]()
![Image]()
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You should've seen me dance at my wedding.
![Image]()
But it actually really started with a friend of mine who, upon finding out that I did a lot of integrated combatives training, simply dropped-jaw and then burst out laughing uncontrollably for nearly 5 minutes.
To preface her response, she has 3 younger children, and had, at that time, known me for more than 10 years.
When she came-to, tears still streaming down her face, she apologized and said, "Oh, Allen, I'm so sorry...I just couldn't help it - a guy like you (I'm a laughing Buddah type: I lost my temper once in the lab, and all of my students remarked what a bad day that was because they've NEVER seen me angry :lol
, all I could think about was Kung Fu Panda." :lol:But there's more embarrassing stuff as well:
I have a lot of trouble "sequencing" movements. For lack of better words, I'm horrible at choreography, and I'm always one of the last students to "get it" when learning any new moves - be it unarmed combatives or with a gun-in-hand. One good example was at Costa's classes two summers ago. At one point, I got up from the prone on a single-hand/arm evolution, only to face a big silly grin on Costa's face: he laughed and said "Damn, Panda, like, Godzilla definitely chomped on you there! you were, like, all <imitating my spastic and uncoordinated body movements>!"
You should've seen me dance at my wedding.
FWIW, I just got my 14yo son a WE XDm for Christmas. Fits perfectly in the holster, weight is comparable, quality is decent and accuracy is acceptable for close distances.
He competes with the exact model in USPSA (and so will I this year until I decide and pay for either a Walther or CZ). We've made a few "steel" targets out of cheap materials from Home Depot and downloaded free IPSC targets from the net....and then got creative with "targets" we find around the house; usually in the recycle bin.
It has been a blast setting up courses and drills. I downloaded the IPSC timer app and use that to push us. He has had a great time, but I have enjoyed it even more, having fun with my son, building skills and memories. The movement, transition drills and pushing yourself to go faster have been beneficial.
On sale, I got the gun for $85, BBs are about $12 per 3500-4500, and about $12 per large can of green gas. Targets are cost of paper and about $25 for 28 gauge steel that I got 6 "plates" and 4 "poppers" out of. Not too bad to be able to "shoot" pretty much whenever you want.
He competes with the exact model in USPSA (and so will I this year until I decide and pay for either a Walther or CZ). We've made a few "steel" targets out of cheap materials from Home Depot and downloaded free IPSC targets from the net....and then got creative with "targets" we find around the house; usually in the recycle bin.
It has been a blast setting up courses and drills. I downloaded the IPSC timer app and use that to push us. He has had a great time, but I have enjoyed it even more, having fun with my son, building skills and memories. The movement, transition drills and pushing yourself to go faster have been beneficial.
On sale, I got the gun for $85, BBs are about $12 per 3500-4500, and about $12 per large can of green gas. Targets are cost of paper and about $25 for 28 gauge steel that I got 6 "plates" and 4 "poppers" out of. Not too bad to be able to "shoot" pretty much whenever you want.
^ I just spent about $80 on a few spare loading nozzles for mine (check cross-thread referenced earlier). I'll report back on how they work out when I get them. The OE parts should arrive within the next two weeks, the Wii Tech component is on the slow boat.
Have you guys tried the magazines in Kydex mag holders? My Crown double mag holder seems a bit loose with the WE mags. I haven't tried it with my Ravens, though.
I'm also thinking about getting another one to covert to a dedicated laser-trainer, by chopping the inner barrel.......
Have you guys tried the magazines in Kydex mag holders? My Crown double mag holder seems a bit loose with the WE mags. I haven't tried it with my Ravens, though.
I'm also thinking about getting another one to covert to a dedicated laser-trainer, by chopping the inner barrel.......
I do not think there is any reall training validity but it does off a convenient excuse for those who want to play airsoft but dont want their buddies to make fun.
:lol:
Just off the top of my mind, both locally as well as nationally:
- SouthNarc’s uses airsoft in his AIMS courses.
- Travis Haley has publicly stated that airsoft cross-training is valid.
- TDI in Ohio uses airsoft for portions of their Force-on-Force curricula.
- A local school runs individualized residential/business defensive firearms tactics classes using the RAP4/RAP17 tools.
Oh, and search up who won the Steel Challenge in 2004. How did that gentleman train? ;-)
:razz:
Sure, it's fun to dress up and play.
But airsoft also holds valid firearms and defensive training context, too.
show me a non-profit outfit like a gov agency/entity, military or LEO that is using airsoft for combat techniques and I will concede the point. Using Airsoft as props or to demonstrate safety issues is not really the same as using them to develop fighting skills. I am sure that those schools and instructors you listed know much more than I do but until I know specifically what they are using them for and by what motivation... I am not inclined to agree.
If the schools and instructors had military budgets they'd be using SESAMS and MILES gear too.
I need to put in my .02 as well......
For airsoft, I am not able to offer advice.... never used one, but I know of several training groups that use it for the force-on-force scenerios they practice. It has its limits, but a whole lot cheaper than some of the other paint-marker type simunitions out there.
For my own personal experience, I have the SIRT trainer - (Glock since the S&W hadn't come out yet).... and that trigger isn't great, but it does help with sight alignment and training for misc. scenerios... especially when using the laserlyte targets or other laser hit indicating equipment. The SIRT is good for the trigger reset training since it has a "two stage" trigger that allows you to train for trigger control. Not perfect by any means, but it works, and in my work environment when travelling, other options are not available.
For cheaper "live fire" practice, I have gotten A LOT of use out of an M&P clone BB gun. It allows trigger control, sight alignment and putting rounds on target. Again, not perfect comparison to the firearms, but I can't shoot firearms in my back yard either. For cost per round and availability.... BB's has everything beat, INCLUDING .22lr.
I would absolutely recommend .22lr for the best of all worlds, especially the new Ruger SR22 and M&P22 .... except for the limited availability of he .22 ammo. Love it for all practice.
It's all very good as long as you consider all the training other than actual live fire with the "full size" caliber will have limits and will not be apples to apples... but, trigger time is trigger time.
For airsoft, I am not able to offer advice.... never used one, but I know of several training groups that use it for the force-on-force scenerios they practice. It has its limits, but a whole lot cheaper than some of the other paint-marker type simunitions out there.
For my own personal experience, I have the SIRT trainer - (Glock since the S&W hadn't come out yet).... and that trigger isn't great, but it does help with sight alignment and training for misc. scenerios... especially when using the laserlyte targets or other laser hit indicating equipment. The SIRT is good for the trigger reset training since it has a "two stage" trigger that allows you to train for trigger control. Not perfect by any means, but it works, and in my work environment when travelling, other options are not available.
For cheaper "live fire" practice, I have gotten A LOT of use out of an M&P clone BB gun. It allows trigger control, sight alignment and putting rounds on target. Again, not perfect comparison to the firearms, but I can't shoot firearms in my back yard either. For cost per round and availability.... BB's has everything beat, INCLUDING .22lr.
I would absolutely recommend .22lr for the best of all worlds, especially the new Ruger SR22 and M&P22 .... except for the limited availability of he .22 ammo. Love it for all practice.
It's all very good as long as you consider all the training other than actual live fire with the "full size" caliber will have limits and will not be apples to apples... but, trigger time is trigger time.
As cce1302 mentioned, Mil/LE have the ability to much more easily procure expensive (relatively) and specialized training gear (blank/IR, Simunition) than civilian/independent training groups. Additionally, Simunitions incur more physical risk (as well as pain, which may dissuade the more timid students into enrolling) and liability.
The groups I mentioned are not using airsoft to demonstrate safety or gun-handling. They are specifically using them to hone defensive fighting skills.
You'll want to check exactly who I mentioned in that off-the-cuff list and how their instruction are considered in the community.
If nothing else, just look up SouthNarc/Shivworks AMIS or ECQC AARs on M4C.net or any other shooting-sports/defensive-shooting Forum (such as DefensiveCarry.com).
Understand that SouthNarc's classes are both open-enrollment as well as Mil/LE, and understand just how many Mil/LE pay (or their organizations pay) so that their personnel can receive training from him. -----
Agreed.
Just as there are trainers who espouse airsoft training, there are also those who do not, with very valid reasons why (such as Robert Vogel).
There are also those who do not value sub-caliber training (it wasn't until the ammo craze in '12 that LAV and Costa finally allowed .22LR ARs in their carbine class, and the former had specifically stated his feelings about sub-caliber AR-based training in open Forums), again with very valid reasons why.
There are also those who do not think that dry-fire practice is valuable, again with valid reasons (Ken Hackathorn).
Each instructor/school will have his/her own biases. They're human, just like the rest of us.
For me, in seeking training, I realize that validity is determined by context.
In seeking instruction, I seek to understand the context in which whatever tactics/methods/techniques my instructor(s) did to survive/dominate the fight worked, so that I can incorporate that understanding into my personal context: my daily life.
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