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Discussion Starter #1
I'm sure most people have talked about this but I was just thinking about it. I think that this works really well b/c as far as I can tell. As long as you limit the usage you should be fine and even if you don't it shouldn't really cost much to do basic maintenance a little sooner. Most people say you should practice with what you plan to use for self defense, mostly for familiarity of the recoil. Well to be honest I can not tell any recoil difference between standard 9mm and +p+ but then again I am still used to the 45. Are any of my statements here wrong or just any other thoughts?
 

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I see no need for +p+ in any gun. If you need that much power, go to a larger caliber. There is no SAAMI spec for +p+. You don't know what pressure you're getting.
 

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Discussion Starter #3
I see no need for +p+ in any gun. If you need that much power, go to a larger caliber. There is no SAAMI spec for +p+. You don't know what pressure you're getting.
Never understood that statement I hear it a lot though, I know what SAAMI is and I agree it is nice to have. However, so what if there is no SAAMI spec, read the company website and they will tell you what the pressure is, generally. If it was really dangerous you and I know big brother wouldn't let us buy it lmao. Now I don't mean to say your wrong but just b/c you aint wrong doesn't make you right, got to love opinions
 

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Never understood that statement I hear it a lot though, I know what SAAMI is and I agree it is nice to have. However, so what if there is no SAAMI spec, read the company website and they will tell you what the pressure is, generally. If it was really dangerous you and I know big brother wouldn't let us buy it lmao. Now I don't mean to say your wrong but just b/c you aint wrong doesn't make you right, got to love opinions
He is right, you don;t know what you are getting. Many +P or +P+ loads are not even that much higher in pressure, but if they do exceed SAAMI, they are supposed to indicate it.
In certain guns, modern designs, using +P or +P+ is going to cause more wear but is safe. You should count on changing recoil springs more often, but that is about it. The frame & bbl lugs may take more pounding, but we are talking 1000s of rounds. I tend to agree w/ the just get a bigger gun comment. Trying to make a 9mm a 357sig is just pressing your luck, buy the gun that is actually designed to run that hard.
Practice like you play is good, I do it, but maybe your 9mm+P just isn't that +P. I can certainly tell the diff. in normal pressure 9mm ammo & the BlackHills +P I carry in my G26, not objectionable, but definitely more recoil. Then again, I have been a big bore guy for 35yrs.
 

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Discussion Starter #5
I was shooting winchester ranger 127 +p+, your right I can not prove that it isnt that much difference, and I am not doubting your experiance. All I was trying to say is that people put to much into SAMMI stats, even more so in the 9mm I mean come on you got standard, +p, nato, then +p+.
 

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If I find myself thinking I need something hotter than what a standard 9mm has, I'll put it back on the shelf and take one of the 45s out of the safe. That being said, it isn't all that easy to find quality carry rounds that aren't +P rated.

I bought my XD9 for lower cost practice compared to my XD45. I want it to be nothing more than that.
 

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It's very easy to find quality carry rounds that are not +P rated.

Look at any one of the several LE oriented 147gr JHP's--HST, Ranger-T, Gold Dot, Golden Saber, or PDX-1; all meet FBI criteria, and all are standard pressure.
 

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Sorry guys, but so called +P+ is nowhere near going to wear your guns out. Federal and Winchester +P+ is not loaded past 38,500psi. Thats SAAMIs +P limit. All domestic ammo with the SAAMI symbol on them are not full charge super powered ammo. Ever wonder how Corbon and other smaller companies get "+P+" velocity and only print a +P on the box?

Then you get into CIP spec ammo. There is no such a thing as +P or +P+. Just one very high pressure limit of 39,200psi. Now here is the kicker. You can buy boxes of CIP spec ammo all day long without a + or a P on it, and it can be loaded hotter than them SAAMI domesticated and vaginized so called +P+.

Even more shocking. Any 9x19mm pistol designed and manufactured in Europe (the IM Metal HS2000 or XD9 as we know it), is designed to operate on a steady diet of CIP spec ammo. +P+ aint going to wear anything out any faster on a 9x19mm pistol made in Europe. Them pistols are designed for even more throttle than our +P+.

They are not going to wear out lugs or parts any faster and springs will wear out at a normal rate, not at a reduced rate like they will with SAAMI spec ammo.

SAAMI spec ammo = crap ammo. SAAMI +P is just starting to get there, and +P+ is almost normal for what the XD9 is designed for.

As always here is a snipit from my CIP loading manual. Almost everysingle load in it, the CIP load STARTS out higher than the SAAMI maximum load goes to.

Dont worry about +P or +P+, Its just almost normal 9x19mm ammo my man. Ignore the extra wear and so on comments. Just like steel case ammo, it can not be proven...........

 

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Discussion Starter #9
Honestly, from age 5 till 25 I never even thought about owning a 9mm thought it wasn't good enough when you have the 45 out there. Then I got my CCW and carried on a regular basis that was a pain. I looked into the compact 45 xd glock and s&w. Realized if I wanted to carry with few restrictions on how i dress, I would have to go with a subcompact. I know some can get away with hiding a full sized xd 45 on them but it isnt easy for me. Yes i could have gone with a g36 but i just don't like being limited to so few rounds but thats just me. BTW ^^^ good call boris
 

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Sorry guys, but so called +P+ is nowhere near going to wear your guns out. Federal and Winchester +P+ is not loaded past 38,500psi. Thats SAAMIs +P limit. All domestic ammo with the SAAMI symbol on them are not full charge super powered ammo. Ever wonder how Corbon and other smaller companies get "+P+" velocity and only print a +P on the box?

Then you get into CIP spec ammo. There is no such a thing as +P or +P+. Just one very high pressure limit of 39,200psi. Now here is the kicker. You can buy boxes of CIP spec ammo all day long without a + or a P on it, and it can be loaded hotter than them SAAMI domesticated and vaginized so called +P+.

Even more shocking. Any 9x19mm pistol designed and manufactured in Europe (the IM Metal HS2000 or XD9 as we know it), is designed to operate on a steady diet of CIP spec ammo. +P+ aint going to wear anything out any faster on a 9x19mm pistol made in Europe. Them pistols are designed for even more throttle than our +P+.

They are not going to wear out lugs or parts any faster and springs will wear out at a normal rate, not at a reduced rate like they will with SAAMI spec ammo.

SAAMI spec ammo = crap ammo. SAAMI +P is just starting to get there, and +P+ is almost normal for what the XD9 is designed for.

As always here is a snipit from my CIP loading manual. Almost everysingle load in it, the CIP load STARTS out higher than the SAAMI maximum load goes to.

Dont worry about +P or +P+, Its just almost normal 9x19mm ammo my man. Ignore the extra wear and so on comments. Just like steel case ammo, it can not be proven...........

Yep. SAAMI pretty much emasculated the poor 9mm. Win and Fed +p+ almost bring it up to european specs. .Which is what the XD was designed to handle.
 

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Yep. SAAMI pretty much emasculated the poor 9mm. Win and Fed +p+ almost bring it up to european specs. .Which is what the XD was designed to handle.

I am so glad someone else understands and knows that. My CIP loading manuals have 147 grain loads that meet IPSC major power levels from a 4" barrel. They are only 33fps slower than 357 SIG velocity. SAAMI 9x19mm is a joke. Same goes for 32ACP or 7.65Br in Europe. the max psi is 5,000psi more for CIP. It is the reason I only carry CIP spec ammo in the P32.
 

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It's all about American Lawsuit Avoidance Factor.

Everything in the country is dumbed-down in order to prevent attacks from greedy scumbag lawyers.
 

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It's all about American Lawsuit Avoidance Factor.

Everything in the country is dumbed-down in order to prevent attacks from greedy scumbag lawyers.

Yep, but you never hear about any lawsuits when Fiocchi 9AP or S&B full CIP spec ammo blows a gun up. Oh wait, thats because it doesn't blow them up..........
 

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Well to be honest I can not tell any recoil difference between standard 9mm and +p+ but then again I am still used to the 45. Are any of my statements here wrong or just any other thoughts?

My overpressure 9mm rounds feel/kick just like the 185g .45 rounds as far as recoil.
 

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Federal and Winchester +P+ is not loaded past 38,500psi. Thats SAAMIs +P limit. All domestic ammo with the SAAMI symbol on them are not full charge super powered ammo. Ever wonder how Corbon and other smaller companies get "+P+" velocity and only print a +P on the box?

Then you get into CIP spec ammo. There is no such a thing as +P or +P+. Just one very high pressure limit of 39,200psi.
B, the diff between the two is less than the std deviation form pistol to pistol, so saying that +P+ isn't close to CIP spec 9mm just isn't reality. Same for the less wear comments. Run any mech'l. device below it's max operating pressure & it will last longer. Ask any tool & die guy. They get longer tool life running their stuff @ reduced rates, same for a car engine or anything else. No, it shoudl not be dismissed, but shouldn't be worried about for the average shooter. For someone burnign 20K rounds a year, yes, you will ahve more parts breakage using higher pressure ammo. Just ask any LEA armorer how many 357sigs they have to replace parts on vs 9mm.
 

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So in a nutshell, you are saying don't be afraid of that 147 +p+ buffalo bore at like almost 1200fps? That is good news as I have had a hankerin' for some. I'm on the hunt for the hottest factory 9mm now. Wish my XDm was a 4.5 to have a few extra fps though.

Sent from my Eris using Tapatalk
 

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B, the diff between the two is less than the std deviation form pistol to pistol, so saying that +P+ isn't close to CIP spec 9mm just isn't reality. Same for the less wear comments. Run any mech'l. device below it's max operating pressure & it will last longer. Ask any tool & die guy. They get longer tool life running their stuff @ reduced rates, same for a car engine or anything else. No, it shoudl not be dismissed, but shouldn't be worried about for the average shooter. For someone burnign 20K rounds a year, yes, you will ahve more parts breakage using higher pressure ammo. Just ask any LEA armorer how many 357sigs they have to replace parts on vs 9mm.

I did not go back and reread what I posted because I believe I said SAAMIs restrictor plate 9x19mm loads will cause less wear, and CIP spec ammo will cause normal wear. 20K a year through an XD or Glock is no problem at all. +P+ is not pushing the pressure a load like Fiocchi 9AP is getting, and there is NO +P or + on the box anywhere. My favorite load for pins back in the day was a 130 grain FMJ over 1300fps. I burned over 30 pounds of Viht 9x19mm powder charged loads from a single Glock 9mm. I never noticed any so called 'excessive' wear.

Fred, now you just got silly on that last sentence. Ask them same LEA what they are shooting. Even if it is this so called +P+ it is not even near the CIP spec limit or even going to touch the 357SIGs even higher pressure than CIPs 9x19mm max psi. SO yes, when you shoot vaginized restrictor plated (yes fred, even +P+ is throttled down) SAAMI spec ammo all domestic LEA use, you will get less than normal wear. Too easy to figure out. You know that.....
 

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'excessive' wear.

Fred, now you just got silly on that last sentence. Ask them same LEA what they are shooting. Even if it is this so called +P+ it is not even near the CIP spec limit or even going to touch the 357SIGs even higher pressure than CIPs 9x19mm max psi. SO yes, when you shoot vaginized restrictor plated (yes fred, even +P+ is throttled down) SAAMI spec ammo all domestic LEA use, you will get less than normal wear. Too easy to figure out. You know that.....
No Boris, the point was if increased pressure & recoil does NOT affect wear, then why do 357sigs wear out faster than 9mm? Hmm? Yeah, I thought so, because ANY machine run at highe cycle rates & pressures wears out faster than one running slower w/ less pressure. AGAIN, it may not matter to the casual shooter, but 20Krds per years is quite a few rounds & you will be fixing parts sooner than later, that is just mechanical fact, whether the gun will take the higher pressures or not. Last example; all 357mags will accept 38sp. It is almost impossible to wear out a 357mag using only 38sp. Yet, shoot full house 357amgs, you'll be retiming or replacing parts in as little as 10K rounds, yes I know because I have done it. No diff w/ semiautos & higher pressure ammo.
 

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No Boris, the point was if increased pressure & recoil does NOT affect wear, then why do 357sigs wear out faster than 9mm? Hmm? Yeah, I thought so, because ANY machine run at highe cycle rates & pressures wears out faster than one running slower w/ less pressure. AGAIN, it may not matter to the casual shooter, but 20Krds per years is quite a few rounds & you will be fixing parts sooner than later, that is just mechanical fact, whether the gun will take the higher pressures or not. Last example; all 357mags will accept 38sp. It is almost impossible to wear out a 357mag using only 38sp. Yet, shoot full house 357amgs, you'll be retiming or replacing parts in as little as 10K rounds, yes I know because I have done it. No diff w/ semiautos & higher pressure ammo.

Fred, I have seen Lugers over 100 years old choke constantly on SAAMI spec ammo. The original specs of 9x19mm back in 1902 was a 123-125 grain bullet at 1300-1325fps. Load the magazine with some blazerbrass with a 115 steping out a whopping SAAMI spec of 1135fps and the gun is going to hate you.

If the 357SIG is soooooo much more powerfull then why do XDs and Glocks use the same spring rates in 9x19mm and 357 SIG pistols? The reason why is their 9x19mm guns are rated for ammo loaded to 39,200psi. The 357SIG pistols are loaded to 40,000psi The difference is so insignificant that they have to use 9x19mm spring rates. My CIP manual has a 147 load for the XTP at 1208 fps. thats about 30 some fps slower than the SIG load. When you push the same diameter bullet with the same weight to almost (800 psi difference) the same psi, well then you darn near get the same velocity. XDs and Glocks shoot steady diets at the rate of tens of thousands a year by other countries that use them and that stoke them with ammo much hotter than our M882 ball. they are not wearing out uberfast as you claim. I have seen them with my own eyes and shot them with hotter NATO spec ammo myself, M882 barely meets NATO standards for 9x19mm. The reason is for M882 we use the SAAMI pressure test method to reach NATOs 36,200 psi limit while NATO and CIP measure 1/4" past the chamber where pressure has dropped off alot by the time it gets measured.

Bottom line fred is if you think that somehow +P+ 9x19mm ammo will wear out a European 9mm pistol super fast you are wrong. The things are designed to handle very hot ammo standards hotter than SAAMI +P specs. It might destroy something like a M&P designed for SAAMI ammo, but IM Metal HS pistols and Glocks and other European guns will last a very long time on a steady diet of ammo HOTTER than SAAMI so called +P+. Just because restrictor plat SAAMI ammo will wear the gun less, does not mean the guns are wearing out faster shooting ammo they are designed to shoot.

Fred, go and shoot 30,000 rounds of Fiocchis 9AP ammo. I bet you think the gun will be fine and wear will be very normal because the box does not have a + a P or another + on it. When you are infact shooting +P+ that is loaded to a pressure even higher than the so called +P+ you get from Federal and Winchester right now. Its all psychological fred. you think they wear them out faster because of the gimmicky printing on the box. When hotter ammo with out the gimmicky printing on the box wears it less or normal. I shoot a steady diet of S&B with the POLICE label on the front. It is full on CIP spec ammo bro and it is HOTTER than 9BPLE I even have the POLICE 115 HP load Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Sellier & Bellot 115gr. NonTox JHP Ammo [SBA00911] - $18.95 that is hotter than 9BPLE. Geco 9x19mm is also +P+ by SAAMI standards, yet does not have that printed on the box.

You are flat out wrong thinking the guns wear out faster with real 9x19mm ammo loaded to 1902 specs. The problem is Americans have gotten used to the lesser wear restrictor plate SAAMI loads put on the gun and think ammo loaded to true 9x19mm specs somehow wears the gun faster.

Its an urban myth once you study the 9x19mm history and its real specs. SAAMI is not a reliable source or serviceable 9x19mm ammo fred. SAAMI 9x19mm is a joke at best. Stick to European CIP spec for serious work and SAAMI for plinking at best.

It is what it is fred, and real 9x19mm ammo does not wear guns out faster, it wears them out on time.
 
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