[Groo]

I am in a rather odd spot. I own a 9mm carbine, but not a 9mm pistol. My Ruger P89 was taken in a burglary before I joined this forum (replaced by my XDm 40 that prompted me to join). While hitting the garage sales, I found and purchased a Hi-Point 9mm carbine, with a 3-9x scope on top. I'm thinking it may become a coyote and other pests gun, because it is cheap enough to leave out in the garden shed with my $85 purchase price.

I'm thinking I'd ideally want some 147gr high pressure to take advantage of the long barrel. and probably help accuracy for the longer shots. It seamed pretty accurate with the cheap 115gr yellow box stuff (found a partial box left over from the Ruger a couple weeks back), but I wouldn't mind something better suited to the carbine. Heavy or light? What do you guys think?

There is a slight chance it may someday get used for deer, but there are so many other and better options already owned, it seams unlikely. Maybe when the kid(s) are sort of big enough to go deer hunting for the first time in about a decade. To put it in perspective; I first went out with a bolt action .410 and slugs as a pre-teen. The Hi-Point would be better than that at least.

 

[Ruaerikoholic]

Would it be legal to hunt deer with a 9mm?

 

[Cannibul]

Interestingly enough it would be legal ONLY if you can find a magazine that holds ONLY 5 rounds.

Would I do it? Not a chance.

A .410 slug is more powerful than ANY 9mm load.

Looking at Winchester's site I find that .410 slugs have a muzzle velocity of 1800-1830 fps and a weight of 88-110 grains.

 

[Boris]

Interestingly enough it would be legal ONLY if you can find a magazine that holds ONLY 5 rounds.

Would I do it? Not a chance.

A .410 slug is more powerful than ANY 9mm load.

Looking at Winchester's site I find that .410 slugs have a muzzle velocity of 1800-1830 fps and a weight of 88-110 grains.

Capacity depends on the state, but most are 6 total rounds. A 410 slug has nowhere near the penetration a 9mm 147 does from a carbine. I have shot both into deer and given a choice I would pick the 9mm carbine anyday over a 410. I have not looked at any sites so I can not comment on that one..............

 

[ksbsnowowl]

Agreed, mag limit is by state. In Missouri you are limited to 10 rounds while deer hunting. On coyote, there is no magazine limit.

 

[Groo]

Well, to answer all of the OT comments; mag limiters do not have to be permanent in my state. so a piece of dowel under the follower is all that would be needed...not that I or anyone else has ever seen a DNR officer on my hunting property. Lets not forget I also mentioned hunting as a pre-teen. Is that legal anywhere in the US?

Plenty of people have taken deer with a 9mm. 9mm is legal for deer here. Any center-fire is.

1800fps and 100gr doesn't sound right to me for a .410 slug. I'd have assumed much heavier and slower; are those sabots? Assuming that is correct, a 9mm could be made to approach those numbers out of a carbine, not that power was even all I was referring to. This gun and scope are much more accurate than the old single pin sighted smooth bore .410.

 

[ksbsnowowl]

Lets not forget I also mentioned hunting as a pre-teen. Is that legal anywhere in the US?

IIRC, it's legal to hunt at age 7 in MO.

 

[Radio Relay]

I'm thinking I'd ideally want some 147gr high pressure to take advantage of the long barrel

There were several reports, complete with test data that came out a couple years ago, that found +P ammo to be a bad choice for 9mm carbines. As I recall, the longer barrel creates a back pressure, which slows the bullet down. So, I've decided to use regular 124gr FMJ rounds in my CX4 for HD and Sd purposes, because they are supposed to perform better.

(I'll do a better search tonight and try to find those reports on the 9mm carbine and +P ammo. I'll post them then)

 

[Boris]

There were several reports, complete with test data that came out a couple years ago, that found +P ammo to be a bad choice for 9mm carbines. As I recall, the longer barrel creates a back pressure, which slows the bullet down. So, I've decided to use regular 124gr FMJ rounds in my CX4 for HD and Sd purposes, because they are supposed to perform better.

(I'll do a better search tonight and try to find those reports on the 9mm carbine and +P ammo. I'll post them then)

Thats interesting. I never heard of that before. What I have heard and have seen throwing different kinds of ammo over some screens is regular pressure 9mm ammo will get velocity faster than +P from a pistol when fired from a carbine. The problem with projectiles that are designed to expand at a slower velocity will expand very agressive and even though speed is faster, penetration will be less. Perhaps this is what you are talking about. When it comes to a 147 regular pressure the extra speed will not be as much of a gain compared to a 115. Projectiles of heavy construction like a XTP or the Goldensaber in 147 will penetrate deeeep and expand more than enough.

The Goldensaber and XTP were my favorites from a Marlin camp carbine for cull deer hunts. Never had a problem with them. If you want ammo that performs just as good but is aloooot cheaper than them big names then go to walmart and get the 147 grain Personal Protection HP in the 50 round box for $15.00. Put lots of meat in lots of freezers with that round from the carbine and various pistols.

 

[Cannibul]

Well, to answer all of the OT comments; mag limiters do not have to be permanent in my state. so a piece of dowel under the follower is all that would be needed...not that I or anyone else has ever seen a DNR officer on my hunting property. Lets not forget I also mentioned hunting as a pre-teen. Is that legal anywhere in the US?

Plenty of people have taken deer with a 9mm. 9mm is legal for deer here. Any center-fire is.

1800fps and 100gr doesn't sound right to me for a .410 slug. I'd have assumed much heavier and slower; are those sabots? Assuming that is correct, a 9mm could be made to approach those numbers out of a carbine, not that power was even all I was referring to. This gun and scope are much more accurate than the old single pin sighted smooth bore .410.

That data is taken from the Winchester site.

1/4 oz and 1/5 oz weight on the slugs. The hollow point is slightly lighter and slightly faster.

My math went this way. 7000/16=437.5 grains to the ounce.

437.5*.25=109.375

Then 437.5*.2=87.5

 

[Groo]

That data is taken from the Winchester site.

1/4 oz and 1/5 oz weight on the slugs. The hollow point is slightly lighter and slightly faster.

My math went this way. 7000/16=437.5 grains to the ounce.

437.5*.25=109.375

Then 437.5*.2=87.5

I guess you are right. a quick on-line search came up with similar results. I guess they are keeping the slug weight down to a comparable weight of the standard shot load.

A hollow, soft lead, high speed slug sounds like a recipe for poor penetration.

 

[Boris]

I guess you are right. a quick on-line search came up with similar results. I guess they are keeping the slug weight down to a comparable weight of the standard shot load.

A hollow, soft lead, high speed slug sounds like a recipe for poor penetration.

The only 410 slug I will use for deer is the Brenneke 1/4oz. They are harder, will not breakup and penetrate real deep. Velocity of them is alot lower though, around 1500fps.

 

[Groo]

found this: Ballistics by the inch

looks like the +p stuff is gaining more velocity with the added length compared to the standard stuff. That agrees with what my gut was telling me. the surprising thin is it looks like the lighter stuff has a steeper slope than the heavier stuff, telling me that lighter bullets get more out of the longer barrel. That does surprise me some. I'd have figured it would be the other way around...not that any of it acts that much different than anything else.

any hot target ammo out there?

 

[Boris]

found this: Ballistics by the inch

looks like the +p stuff is gaining more velocity with the added length compared to the standard stuff. That agrees with what my gut was telling me. the surprising thin is it looks like the lighter stuff has a steeper slope than the heavier stuff, telling me that lighter bullets get more out of the longer barrel. That does surprise me some. I'd have figured it would be the other way around...not that any of it acts that much different than anything else.

is there any hot target ammo out there that isn't really expensive? speer lawman maybe?

The only problem with all that velocity with them light projectiles is they are not designed to work proper at them speeds. Expansion will be agressive and penetration will be shallow. I have seen it first hand. For hunting you will get better penetration with a sturdy 147. When it comes to hunting you want penetration, not high energy numbers.

If you want ammo that is not expensive but is 'hotter' you will need to get away from SAAMI spec ammo. You will need to buy some CIP spec ammo. Fiocchi 9AP is hot. Alot hotter than so called "+P". Another is S&B in the "police" boxes. They are loaded closer to CIPs max pressure of 39,200psi.

Here is a few links to CIP spec ammo that will be noticably hotter than SAAMI spec 9mm

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Fiocchi 115gr. FMJ Ammo [9AP] - $11.49

This is the same "spec" as Federal 9BPLE that is labeled +P+.
Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Sellier & Bellot 115gr. NonTox JHP Ammo [SBA00911] - $18.95

Here is a good full power CIP load also.
Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Dynamit Nobel (Geco) 124gr. FMJ Ammo [GECO9mm] - $9.89

Costs no more than SAAMIs weak standard spec and is a heck of alot cheaper than SAAMIs so called +P spec.

 

[Groo]

The only problem with all that velocity with them light projectiles is they are not designed to work proper at them speeds. Expansion will be agressive and penetration will be shallow. I have seen it first hand. For hunting you will get better penetration with a sturdy 147. When it comes to hunting you want penetration, not high energy numbers.

If you want ammo that is not expensive but is 'hotter' you will need to get away from SAAMI spec ammo. You will need to buy some CIP spec ammo. Fiocchi 9AP is hot. Alot hotter than so called "+P". Another is S&B in the "police" boxes. They are loaded closer to CIPs max pressure of 39,200psi.

Here is a few links to CIP spec ammo that will be noticably hotter than SAAMI spec 9mm

Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Fiocchi 115gr. FMJ Ammo [9AP] - $11.49

This is the same "spec" as Federal 9BPLE that is labeled +P+.
Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Sellier & Bellot 115gr. NonTox JHP Ammo [SBA00911] - $18.95

Here is a good full power CIP load also.
Ammunition To Go : 50rds - 9mm Dynamit Nobel (Geco) 124gr. FMJ Ammo [GECO9mm] - $9.89

Costs no more than SAAMIs weak standard spec and is a heck of alot cheaper than SAAMIs so called +P spec.

I was actually leaning FMJ, for penetration, and to keep it cheap. I then read some references to Hirtenberger SMG ammo; and that sounded perfect, but not readily available any more. Then I read 9mm NATO was actually +p or stronger. I've heard Fiocchi was loaded to NATO pressure standards. I'm guessing the Dynamit Nobel is actually the equivalent of M822. I think Federal sells a M822 equivalent too. something like that might be the way to go.

 

[Boris]

I was actually leaning FMJ, for penetration, and to keep it cheap. I then read some references to Hirtenberger SMG ammo; and that sounded perfect, but not readily available any more. Then I read 9mm NATO was actually +p or stronger. I've heard Fiocchi was loaded to NATO pressure standards. I'm guessing the Dynamit Nobel is actually the equivalent of M822. I think Federal sells a M822 equivalent too. something like that might be the way to go.

The Geco is as hot or hotter than NATO. The 9AP is for sure hotter. Federal does not make M882 anymorre but Wincheter does.

Goodluck finding L7A1. I have not found any since the mid 90s.........

 

[PC_Carbine]

The best 9mm ammo for a 16inch barrel(especially the ruger PC carbine) would be the underwood ammo 90grain +P+ Xtreme Defender 9mm cartidge, it is superior for both self defense and hunting, out of a pistols you are going to see about 1550 fps and out of a carbine you are going to see a 300fps increase at roughly 1800-1850fps creating a muzzle energy approaching 700ft/lbs. Often times hollow points are not designed for the faster velocity that a carbine provides, dumping the energy far too fast resulting in insufficient penetration, now I have done extensive research trying to find the perfect round using sources such as ballistics by the inch, several youtube videos and my own tests using ballistic gel and chronograph. This particular round is light enough to see a considerable velocity increase(Note: 9mm rounds above 115/124 grains will not see a significant velocity increase out of a carbine compared to the pistol) resulting in ballistics good enough for 200yard+ first time accuracy. Now because this is neither a FMJ(creating to little cavitation but sufficient penetration out of a carbine) nor a HP(creating great cavitation but not enough penetration out of a carbine) this round is perfect because it is right in the middle of what is needed for penetration and cavitation at high velocities. Now when I finally found my golden child, something I believed that must be too good to be true, I then found it had one flaw, its cost...roughly $1.45 per round/$28.99 for a box of 20. But if you are conservative with ammo this shouldn’t be too big of a problem. Thats my conclusion I came to, again underwood ammo 90grain +P+ Xtreme Defender 9mm Luger, thanks for reading!!! P.S. if you are using your 9mm carbine for small rodents and rabbits where penetration doesnt matter then I would recommend a 50grain 9mm projectile where you would exceed 2,400 fps out of a carbine and would completely anialate any small game. Again thanks!

 

[Cuda66]

The best 9mm ammo for a 16inch barrel(especially the ruger PC carbine) would be the underwood ammo 90grain +P+ Xtreme Defender 9mm cartidge, it is superior for both self defense and hunting, out of a pistols you are going to see about 1550 fps and out of a carbine you are going to see a 300fps increase at roughly 1800-1850fps creating a muzzle energy approaching 700ft/lbs. Often times hollow points are not designed for the faster velocity that a carbine provides, dumping the energy far too fast resulting in insufficient penetration, now I have done extensive research trying to find the perfect round using sources such as ballistics by the inch, several youtube videos and my own tests using ballistic gel and chronograph. This particular round is light enough to see a considerable velocity increase(Note: 9mm rounds above 115/124 grains will not see a significant velocity increase out of a carbine compared to the pistol) resulting in ballistics good enough for 200yard+ first time accuracy. Now because this is neither a FMJ(creating to little cavitation but sufficient penetration out of a carbine) nor a HP(creating great cavitation but not enough penetration out of a carbine) this round is perfect because it is right in the middle of what is needed for penetration and cavitation at high velocities. Now when I finally found my golden child, something I believed that must be too good to be true, I then found it had one flaw, its cost...roughly $1.45 per round/$28.99 for a box of 20. But if you are conservative with ammo this shouldn’t be too big of a problem. Thats my conclusion I came to, again underwood ammo 90grain +P+ Xtreme Defender 9mm Luger, thanks for reading!!! P.S. if you are using your 9mm carbine for small rodents and rabbits where penetration doesnt matter then I would recommend a 50grain 9mm projectile where you would exceed 2,400 fps out of a carbine and would completely anialate any small game. Again thanks!

I don’t believe the hype of these screwdriver tip rounds. Rather run a heavier JHP, get a wider channel that will still be deep. I have serious doubts that the temporary cavity will actually cause permanent damage, and that in real tissue, those rounds will have a similar wound track to ball—just shallower due to their exceedingly light weight. Cost would be a serious consideration, as well—one would have to close to $150 worth just to vett reliability out of 2-3 magazines...I just don’t see these rounds doing anything better than street proven JHP rounds to justify the cost.

I’m running 147gr Ranger-T out of my MP5 clone; I also ran it in my Colt 6951; it remains subsonic, which suppresses very nicely. If I wanted a light weight screamer, I’d dig into my stock of Federal 9BPLE 115gr+P+ or 127+P+ Ranger-T—both loads that have excellent, proven track records in carbine/subgun applications.

 

[John A.]

While this is an epic necro ( 7 years), I will go ahead and reply.

I use 165 gr hand loads.

I will occasionally put the bullets in my lathe and make hollow points out of the ones that I have earmarked for HD use as well, which removes on average about 3 grains of weight.

I'm not a fan of running 380 length bullets in my HD stuff. I don't care what the velocity is. Velocity isn't everything.

I prefer a long slow moving pill.

Would you rather be hit with a ping pong ball, or a softball?

Would you rather be hit with a basketball or with a wrecking ball?

 

[PC_Carbine]

That data is taken from the Winchester site.

1/4 oz and 1/5 oz weight on the slugs. The hollow point is slightly lighter and slightly faster.

My math went this way. 7000/16=437.5 grains to the ounce.

437.5*.25=109.375

Then 437.5*.2=87.5

I don’t believe the hype of these screwdriver tip rounds. Rather run a heavier JHP, get a wider channel that will still be deep. I have serious doubts that the temporary cavity will actually cause permanent damage, and that in real tissue, those rounds will have a similar wound track to ball—just shallower due to their exceedingly light weight. Cost would be a serious consideration, as well—one would have to close to $150 worth just to vett reliability out of 2-3 magazines...I just don’t see these rounds doing anything better than street proven JHP rounds to justify the cost.

I’m running 147gr Ranger-T out of my MP5 clone; I also ran it in my Colt 6951; it remains subsonic, which suppresses very nicely. If I wanted a light weight screamer, I’d dig into my stock of Federal 9BPLE 115gr+P+ or 127+P+ Ranger-T—both loads that have excellent, proven track records in carbine/subgun applications.

To achieve the ballistics needed for 200 yard accuracy without a ludicrous drop you need a light fast moving projectile in the 9mm, now I recommlook up muzzle energy because i have found this profectile maximizes muzzle energy, again 700ft/lbs!!!! And keep in mind the 5.56 is often found in a 55 grain projectile where as the AK is a heavier round moving slower ye