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Discussion Starter #1
I've seen a trend here recently, towards the heavier 9mm sub-sonic hp's. Just some f.y.i. for all you 9mm owners out there who are trusting your lives to this.....don't do it. The 9mm 147 gr. hp's were originally developed by our government for "eliminating" sentry dogs in vietnam, from silenced pistols of course. By adding mass, the round never breaks the speed of sound, thus no report,thus easier to silence. This "wonder round" was very short lived, due to its in-effectiveness. The 9mm has only one thing going for it, decent muzzle velocity in the 115-124 gr. range. When you rob it of it's velocity, it doesn't possess enough mass(such as the .45 acp), to make up for it. Reliable expansion is also very "iffy" at sub-sonic velocity, which equals an in-ability to transfer it's muzzle energy reliably to the target. The 147's came back for a very short time again in the late 80's, and again it was immediately discarded.I am not a 9mm advocate, but if you trust your life(lives) to this caliber, this info may be worthy of some consideration.
 

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Damn, I guess I will have to contact my former dept., Los Angeles County Sheriffs Dept. and tell them the ammo they have been using since late 1989 (Winchester Ranger Talon LE 147gr 9mm) is a f**cked ammo. I will also let them know that all of those 1000s of rounds they used for testing purposes prior to choosing that round was a waste of time and money.

Furthermore, I will let them know that all of the successful shootings they have had since adoption of the round were evidently a fluke and that they need to change to a different grain version of the Ranger. I will advise them to contact all of the depts (I don't which ones, but I'm sure they do) who relied on their tests and adopted the round also, for the need for the change.

Additionally, I will be posting on tactical forums and advising Dr. Gary Roberts, that purported ballistics expert, that his testing that resulted in a recommendation of that round, among others, was flawed and he needs to contact all le agencies around the country who chose that round (He will probably know) based on his flawed testing so they can immediately change to either the 115 or 124gr range as recommended by masterofg3.

Thank you masterofg3 for posting this invaluable information that will probably save countless officer's/deputie's lives. Bravo!
 

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Hmmm.. The Federal 147 gr. JHP is my prefered carry round.. I have absolute confidence in them. If it is true that the 115 gr. or 125 gr. JHP rounds are more effective I suppose I should change.

I like the 147 gr. round because of my experience with it. The rounds eject consistently, the rounds seem to shoot straighter, and they pack a nice punch. I have experimented on different targets.... solid wood, particle board, jeans on particle board, jeans on stytofoam on particle board.. it seems to work pretty well...

But, if it is true that the 147 gr. round is a bad idea.. I will certainly chose another carry round.

Raymond
 

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Firearm Tactical, the FBI wound ballistics test, and PD test have nothing but good things to say about the 147gr hp bullet. I'd trust them with my life anytime.

The Winchester Black Talon 9mm 147gr JHP at 981 f/s produced an almost identical profile with penetration of 35cm (13.8") and and expansion of .61".
AmmoLab
Q: I was told that the 147 Grain 9mm load was not used by "real cops" and has a bad reputation on the street?
A: First, that statement is complete 100% BS. The truth is that the 147gr 9mm has been used successfully in more 9mm LE line of Duty Shootings than any other 9mm loading.

Second, bullet weight alone does not determine the wounding capability of a given round and altering weight or velocity without the accompanying engineering analysis will in most cases make the product less effective. There is much more to the issue than weight and velocity. Real valid tests and studies have been done using the Federal 147gr and Winchester 147gr 9mm jhp cartridges and late San Diego Criminologist Gene Wolberg published the only peer reviewed work on the 147gr 9mm to date.
http://www.firearmstactical.com/tactical.htm
http://apollo.demigod.org/~zak/firearms/fbi-pistol.php[/b][/quote]
 

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lemme guess.....USE THE 10MM!! :? .. this seems to be where this guy goes with all his posts.. hey masterofg3 i thought you were getting rid of your xd.. why are you still here?
 

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I wouldn't use the 9mm 147gr either. It is a worthless bullet in a worthless caliber in a worthless gun. You are so right "masterofg3". I have finally come around to your way of thinking. The 10mm RULES like no other caliber on planet earth. What The F_ _ _ am I talking about, I must have been dreaming. Now that I'm awake, masterofnothingg3 you are so full of **** on everything you comment about it makes me want to PUKE. I will take my 9mm any day over your 10mm and your G3 Glock. I carry 127's but a well placed 147gr is going to do the job. You can rely on your 10mm's so called one shot stopping power all you want, but the prudent man will keep firing until the threat is stopped. As I have said before, I can put more rounds on target with my lowly 9mm in a given time than you could ever dream about with your 10mm. Trauma is what stops a human body and when I can get 3 rounds on target to your 1, well you do the math.
 

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Discussion Starter #10
Ok, I'll try another approach. Why do you think other calibers such as the 10mm, 40s&w, .357 Sig, etc. exist? Ever heard of the miami shootout? Many different types and weights were tried for the 9mm and most resulted in failures "on the street". The f.b.i.s answer, after the miami shootout was the 10mm, which was shortly thereafter downloaded to 950 fps.(fbi spec). Later the 10mm gave us 3 offspring in the form of the 40s&w and the .357 Sig(and the 9x25 Dillon).Ahem...the point being that the 9mm was found lacking, and most of law enforcement (including the f.b.i.) said goodbye to it long ago. These are simply facts, getting red faced about it won't help! The army is going back to the .45 as well, the new pistol trials will be under way as soon as the criteria is finalized. Can you kill with a 9mm? Sure you can! I can pry off a hub cap with a pocketknife, but it doesnt make it the right tool for the job.
 

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No common handgun is adequate for serious killing.

The only thing you can really rely upon with a handgun is to get your 0.36-0.45 inches to hit something useful. If your JHP expands, well good for you.

Personally I'd take a -0.09 inch loss in bullet diameter in exchange for 40% more chances to hit something before I need to reload.
 

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Discussion Starter #14
I see david-4 that you live within 30 minutes of me. Think you can outshoot me with my G-20 eh? My G-20's not completely stock,but you seem confident enough. Meet at target world or wherever you want! Now, how much cash am I gonna walk out with?
 

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Wow another this bullet vs. this bullet thread. I personally love the 147 gr 9mm bullet. I also own a 10mm, little tougher to group them quickly than a 9mm but I do fairly well.
I put it to you like this, I wouldn't want to get hit with either, much less a .22
 

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Seriously if you guys go and shoot together let me know. I am also from cincy and would love to see the "magnificent world that is 10mm". :roll: I am sure the 10mm is a nice round but sheesh get off it already.
 

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masterofg3 said:
I see david-4 that you live within 30 minutes of me. Think you can outshoot me with my G-20 eh? My G-20's not completely stock,but you seem confident enough. Meet at target world or wherever you want! Now, how much cash am I gonna walk out with?
I'm sure david-4 would prefer to shoot with (like most of us) his friends.
 

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At least you put out in public what you did in your PM.

From: masterofg3
To: David_4
Posted: Fri Sep 16, 2005 11:52 pm
Subject: full of ****?
Huber heights heh? I live in hamilton. Lets go shooting sometime. I'll bring my G-20!

I am very careful who I shoot with and your not the type of person I would do that with. I am very confident about my abilities with a handgun and don't need to prove it to anyone, especially someone like you. Just so you know, I have had 2 G-22's in the last 14 yrs. and the one I currently have is a G3. I am very proficient with with my Glock, does it get range time, no, not since I got my XD Tactical. I feel the XD is a much nicer shooting gun than a Glock. My G-22 will be for sale or traded in on another XD soon. More than likely a .357 Sig Tactical. If your happy with your 10mm that's great, but at least when you post have some factual data to back up what you say. That's the biggest problem I have with you other than your jamming the 10mm down all our XD throats.
 

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masterofg3 said:
I see david-4 that you live within 30 minutes of me. Think you can outshoot me with my G-20 eh? My G-20's not completely stock,but you seem confident enough. Meet at target world or wherever you want! Now, how much cash am I gonna walk out with?

:roll:


STFU about the 10MM!


GO AWAY!
 

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Discussion Starter #20
Well, I was attacked(from multiple directions I might add) for simply posting the facts. David-4, you take a shot at me every chance you get, furthermore YOU challenged ME in your first post....no? Then I gave you a chance at a little "public humiliation" at a nearby indoor range and you pulled a "slick willie". Looks like your the one who's "full of s**t"! "Selective about who you shoot with"?........really? "People like me"?.......really? Stay off my posts you fraud.
 
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