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Discussion Starter · #1 · (Edited)

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Mirrors my conclusions after having done a little research into current defensive ammo in prep for buying a new pistol. Good post.

I work with a true believer in the ".40 one-shot stop" school, and it's annoying as all get out.
 

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My experiences and eventual results are very similar to Rob's. I fell in love with the 1911 and it's .45 ACP cartridge during my years in the service. I saw the 1911 continue to function in conditions that hoplessly "jammed" our early issue M-16s and I saw the .45 ACP cartridge work just as Browning designed it to do.

I continued to extoll the virtues of the 1911 in .45 ACP during the 80s and 90s while shooting in IPSC competitions. Then several years ago I started hearing about these new bonded hollow points that would reliably expand under almost all conditions. After lots of interweb research, and my own informal, unscientific one gallon milk jug tests, I now carry an XD(m) in 9 mm, loaded with 147 gr.Federal HSTs.

As an added bonus, I can cast quite a few more 120 gr. 9 mm bullets from the same pound of wheel weights than 200 gr. .45 bullets!
 

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ok, I'll be the first to disagree with his opinion. I happen to like the .40 better than the 9mm.


I don't disagree on the "one shot stop" thing. I train to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

I also think that practice with a .22 is a good idea and he doesn't seem to like the idea.
 

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A very well written article that makes some valid points.


Am I about to convert my duty and CCW weapons from .40 to 9mm? Nope. I respect anyone else’s right to carry whatever caliber they feel is good as long as they can back it up with factual evidence.

I'm sure there are plenty of other equally well put together and data backed pieces written that carry the opposite opinion of the writer in that article.

My point is, for me, the .40 is preferable. I'm sure if shooting a "string of fire" as fast as I could in a combat situation over a long enough time frame, I could shoot one more round of 9mm than .40. While that is worth mentioning, in my most humble opinion, that isn't necessarily as important a factor as the author made it out to be.

I've fired a handgun in a "combat situation" and I didn't fire as many rounds as I could for a set period of time. I fired 4 rounds at one target in what I assume was under 2 seconds. (It happened to be a 9mm, for the record.)

If the scenario was the same but I had a .40 instead, there would have still been 4 rounds fired in under 2 seconds. Would they have been fired as fast? Probably not, but the difference would have most certainly been in the tenths or hundredths of a second. Would they have been fired as accurately due to the increased recoil? From a technical standpoint, probably not. Would they have been less accurate enough to matter to me or the target? I highly highly doubt it.

The target fired back one round as he dropped to his knees. It didn't hit anything but it scared the living you know what out of me.

The question that forms the basis of my opinion is this:

If I could go back in time, would I have traded the 9mm for a .40? Hell yes, in a heartbeat.

It would have been slower (negligibly so). It would have been less accurate (negligibly so). And he would have been hit with 4 .40 instead of 4 9mm. That doesn't necessarily mean he wouldn't have fired a shot back, but it has to count for something.

While sacrifices in tenths of seconds in rates of fire and millimeters in accuracy across strings of fire could possibly cost a person dearly I think the difference in grains delivered to the target meaning more in 99 out of 100 instances.

Now if you were to compare a 9mm to a .45, it might change the debate as accuracy and time would assumedtly deteriorate expontentially to the point of making the 9mm more desirable....then again, maybe not.
Take it for what it is worth. (probably not much)
 

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ok, I'll be the first to disagree with his opinion. I happen to like the .40 better than the 9mm.


I don't disagree on the "one shot stop" thing. I train to shoot until the threat is no longer a threat.

I also think that practice with a .22 is a good idea and he doesn't seem to like the idea.
Why do you like the .40 better than the 9 though, simply stating you dont agree doesnt prove much other than you dont agree.
 

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everything (9mm vs .40) in that article has already been said on this forum.

I read 9mm vs .40 before I bought. I chose the .40 without ever firing a .40 and do not regret it for a second. I love it.

I wish I could shoot it more often and work on my skills. I think the skills factor plays a bigger role than any perceived "disadvantages" the .40 would have (recoil and round capacity).
 

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Try telling this to the bigger is better crowd, they dont believe in the truth lol.
Sorry, size does matter & bigger is better as long as yo ucan handle it. There have been small bore advocates since WWI, it just doesn't seem to work out as well in the field.;) As has been noted in the past, the 45 will never be smaller & really does require a good JHP to be as effective. I shoot both the same, am restricted to 10+1, so the biggest advantage of the 9mm, mag cap, is negated a bit. I do like it in a smaller pistol like the XDC or G26, makes sense there where I can load 10 & the lower recoil is a benefit in the smaller guns.
 

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Why do you like the .40 better than the 9 though, simply stating you dont agree doesnt prove much other than you dont agree.
basically, he calls the advantage that the .40 has in velocity, diameter, and bullet weight negligible.

I call the advantage that 9mm has in magazine capacity and speed of follow up shots negligible.

Yeah, I could probably carry 16 rounds of 9mm instead of 13 rounds of .40 (or 8 of .357 magnum), but if I'm missing that many times, then an extra couple rounds won't help. If I'm hitting that many times, I should be using the AK in my trunk.

I can probably fire 5 rounds of 9mm faster than I can shoot .40. How much faster? not much. I think it's splitting hairs to make an issue about whatever that difference might be.

I believe that the first hit counts the most (follow up shots are still necessary), and it escapes me as to how I (or anybody) can be any more accurate with an XD9 than with an XD40.
 

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sounds like he's going back to the spray and pray ideas of 40 years ago when "everyone" knew the 45acp was useless for personal defense. Ask the Taliban how that's working out over trained fire control.
 

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He has some good points. My next gun may be in 9mm as it will be for CC and small is desirable. It doesn't matter a tremendous amount as long as you put the holes in the shirt pocket -- either will work fine.
 

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sounds like he's going back to the spray and pray ideas of 40 years ago when "everyone" knew the 45acp was useless for personal defense. Ask the Taliban how that's working out over trained fire control.
And the mag cap thing is moot in states that limit you to 10+1 or when we had the fed ban high caps. So if I am stuck w/ 10+1, I want bigger bullets. Yes you have to shoot better, which means you have to train & practice more. Yes you have to carry a spare mag, but one should anyway, regardless of mag cap.
 

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saying you have less ammo so you have to shoot better seems like a silly concept. I have 16 +1 and I would not try to be less accurate if I had 19+1.

people should try to make every shot count regardless of how many you have in the mag or how many mags you have on your belt. am i right?
 

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And the mag cap thing is moot in states that limit you to 10+1 or when we had the fed ban high caps. So if I am stuck w/ 10+1, I want bigger bullets. Yes you have to shoot better, which means you have to train & practice more. Yes you have to carry a spare mag, but one should anyway, regardless of mag cap.
I've always kinda been of the opinion that the 94AWB was one of the reasons for the resurgence of the 1911; if you can't have a whole bunch of little rounds, you want fewer BIG ones.

It's also my pet theory that the .45GAP was Glock's gamble that the AWB wouldn't be allowed to sunset...10rd max cap on the G37.

Dunno. If I want a large round, I carry the .45; if I want lots olf little rounds, I carry a 9mm. I see no reason to compromise and go with a .40.

10mm, on the other hand...;)
 

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basically, he calls the advantage that the .40 has in velocity, diameter, and bullet weight negligible.

I call the advantage that 9mm has in magazine capacity and speed of follow up shots negligible.

Yeah, I could probably carry 16 rounds of 9mm instead of 13 rounds of .40 (or 8 of .357 magnum), but if I'm missing that many times, then an extra couple rounds won't help. If I'm hitting that many times, I should be using the AK in my trunk.

I can probably fire 5 rounds of 9mm faster than I can shoot .40. How much faster? not much. I think it's splitting hairs to make an issue about whatever that difference might be.

I believe that the first hit counts the most (follow up shots are still necessary), and it escapes me as to how I (or anybody) can be any more accurate with an XD9 than with an XD40.
Exactly!!
 

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saying you have less ammo so you have to shoot better seems like a silly concept. I have 16 +1 and I would not try to be less accurate if I had 19+1.

people should try to make every shot count regardless of how many you have in the mag or how many mags you have on your belt. am i right?
Well in real life shootings, it doesn't work that way. The unskilled &/or untrained will spray & pray. Watch any robbery videos, the BG start duckking & pulling the trigger, many of the GG too. The skilled & trained will use disciplined fire. It's why SWAT & Spec op guys shoot more that the line guys, they want/need to be better regardless of round count.
 

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Well in real life shootings, it doesn't work that way. The unskilled &/or untrained will spray & pray. Watch any robbery videos, the BG start duckking & pulling the trigger, many of the GG too. The skilled & trained will use disciplined fire. It's why SWAT & Spec op guys shoot more that the line guys, they want/need to be better regardless of round count.


I have never had someone start tossing lead my way so I can't opine on being able to stand and aim properly.


in a home defense situation I expect the tac light will show me generally where I will hit. I know I shouldn't depend on that but until I can get real training I feel better having it.
 

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I have never had someone start tossing lead my way so I can't opine on being able to stand and aim properly.


in a home defense situation I expect the tac light will show me generally where I will hit. I know I shouldn't depend on that but until I can get real training I feel better having it.
Well you wouldn't stand & fight in the open unless that was all you could do. You would move to cover & shoot if you could along the way. Unlike the BG, we have to account for our missed rounds, so "covering fire" in a civilian setting isn't advised unless you are in an underground parking lot or sim. It's not being shot at that is distracting, it's being hit. So focus on the problem @ hand & solve it. Cover is your friend, gun skills beat mag cap any day. It will always be shot placement that wins or luck, but if you rely on luck, she is a fickle bitch.:shock:
Watch highly trained solders or SWAT guys in actual gunfights, there isn't much ducking going on but disciplined fire used to solve the problem. Then watch the unskilled tpyes, like in Lybia, they hit anything only by luck. It's aquiring that discipline that is the key. Good training & then good practice, often. Gun skills are regressive, it's NOT like riding a bike if you want to always be at the top of your game, you gotta shoot often, not a lot, but often.
 
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