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What is your intended purpose of using the frangible round? Target practice, or Self Defense/
 

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Frangible ammo is only good for shooting steel targets at close range.

For that, any frangible load will work.

For any other purpose...it's useless.
 

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Some people will keep it in their weapon if they are in close quarters with others like in an apartment. frangible .380 ammo wouldn't be the best option for stopping an attacker (with that caliber) but it sure wouldn't be fun for them.

Some people like glaser safety slugs for that reason. They probably make one in .380.
 

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ccw in high traffic areas
Let me point out the major flaw in that concept.

Well, actually, flaws, plural...

First off, for thinking .380 is overpenetrating...if anything, UNDERpenetration is an issue with .380...

Second--using a less-effective round means you'll likely have to shoot more. More shots in a dynamic scenario means a greater chance of a miss. A miss is more likely to hit someone in your "high traffic area" than a round that might overpenetrate.

Third--thinking that a .380 round that overpenetrates is likely to be dangerous...see flaw #1 for reasons why.
 

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A .380 with full metal jacket bullets is a marginal round, a .380 with hollow points is an under performing round with little penetration, a .380 with frangible ammo is pretty much useless.
 

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ccw in high traffic areas
My 2 cents. If you are carrying in a high traffic area with a .380, your first obligation is to "protect yourself". Your second worry is , if you have to protect yourself, you want the best .380 ammo available to do the job. Then if you are able to do the the first, with the second, your least worry after you save your own butt is did anyone else get injured in the process. Otherwise, while you are trying to save bystanders you may get yourself killed. Thats a choice you have to make, whose butt to save, yours or a slight chance of someone else getting injured. :razz:
 

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My 2 cents. If you are carrying in a high traffic area with a .380, your first obligation is to "protect yourself". Your second worry is , if you have to protect yourself, you want the best .380 ammo available to do the job. Then if you are able to do the the first, with the second, your least worry after you save your own butt is did anyone else get injured in the process. Otherwise, while you are trying to save bystanders you may get yourself killed. Thats a choice you have to make, whose butt to save, yours or a slight chance of someone else getting injured. :razz:
Ummm...

So the gist of your point is: if you decide to employ your weapon...if you have a stray round that finds it's way into an innocent bystander...ooops, too bad for them?

Seriously?
 

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Ummm...

So the gist of your point is: if you decide to employ your weapon...if you have a stray round that finds it's way into an innocent bystander...ooops, too bad for them?

Seriously?
Cuda, how many police shootouts result in bystanders injuries? Very few.

I also knew when I posted on the same thread as you that you would do the best you could do to discredit what I said. You do it every time after I called you out a long time ago on a long forgotten post. Get over it!
 

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Cuda, how many police shootouts result in bystanders injuries? Very few.

I also knew when I posted on the same thread as you that you would do the best you could do to discredit what I said. You do it every time after I called you out a long time ago on a long forgotten post. Get over it!
Actually, I seem to recall you faded pretty damn fast after I called your nonsense in several posts. (Surefire high-cap mags ring a bell?)

And it's not too damn hard to discredit a lot of what you post; I tend to just point out the obvious.

I will also note that you want to change the subject, instead of actually addressing my point (too damn bad for innocent bystanders).

Typical of you, Ray....typical.
 

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If you want to avoid bystanders being hurt in a SD shooting, I suggest you concentrate on hitting your target with the proper ammo. A .380 is not likely to be a through and through shot. I consider my .380 to be an up close and personal type of gun that will be utilized as a backup or better than nothing kind of gun. My main carry is a .45 compact with .230 grain Gold Dots. Very accurate gun, I shoot it VERY well and the .45 should do a great job of stopping the threat and not overpenetrating with a CM hit.

Any caliber with quality HP ammo should do what its intended to do, except a .380.
 

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For defensive rounds?
I carry Rem Gold Saber. They're 102 gr vs 95gr of most others. The Hornady Critical Defense looks good though.




I'm curious where this ".380's only break the skin and piss the bad guys off" concept came from.
 

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For defensive rounds?
I carry Rem Gold Saber. They're 102 gr vs 95gr of most others. The Hornady Critical Defense looks good though.




I'm curious where this ".380's only break the skin and piss the bad guys off" concept came from.
I think that's taking it to a bit of an extreme.

However--few .380 loads will get the 12"+ penetration that anything less than a perfect, square-on shot requires to get to vital structure. About the only loads that do it reliably are FMJ...and even they don't always get there.

Hence, .380 is a marginal round...I'd take one over being armed with nothing better than harsh language (heck, I'd take a .25 over that...)...but if one is serious about one's defense, it is far better to be armed with a more effective caliber.
 

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So where did this 12" penetration concept come from? Why is 12" the magic number and not 10"? Most people's vitals aren't 12" deep. Just 4" and you're usually well within a lung, brain, or abdomen.

Wouldn't transfer of energy be more important than penetration as far as "stopping power?"
 

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So where did this 12" penetration concept come from? Why is 12" the magic number and not 10"? Most people's vitals aren't 12" deep. Just 4" and you're usually well within a lung, brain, or abdomen.

Wouldn't transfer of energy be more important than penetration as far as "stopping power?"
Well...

If energy transfer was the most imprtant aspect, a lightweight, high speed rifle in .220 Swift would be one of the best dangerous game rifles ever, since it would transfer all of it's energy into the target.

However, take a .220 Swift loaded with 4300fps 36gr screamers to Africa or Alaska, and watch the guides laugh until they fall down.

You may contend that humans are not dagga boys or brownies; I would contend that they are even more dangerous...

As for where the 12" came from--it's from a less-than optimal shot. Real world example: measure from the outside of your right bicep to your left nipple. I bet it's about 12"...and I guarantee it's more than 4". Can you envision a situation where an attacker may be presenting in such a postion? I can...

Only amateurs assume an attacker will look like a silhouette target--chest squarely presented, arms to the side.
 
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In addition, imagine trying to shoot through the skeletal structure of weapon-wielding arm/hand and then still needing to penetrate the BG's chest enough to reach the vital organs.
 

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For defensive rounds?
I carry Rem Gold Saber. They're 102 gr vs 95gr of most others. The Hornady Critical Defense looks good though.




I'm curious where this ".380's only break the skin and piss the bad guys off" concept came from.
HP and frangible will not penetrate any where close the the minimum of 12". Most HP will do 4 or 8" at the most on 4 layers of denim they are almost useless when encountering light barriers.

So where did this 12" penetration concept come from? Why is 12" the magic number and not 10"? Most people's vitals aren't 12" deep. Just 4" and you're usually well within a lung, brain, or abdomen.

Wouldn't transfer of energy be more important than penetration as far as "stopping power?"

Energy transfer causing any kind of wounding in service pistol calibers is a myth. The only thing that causes wounding in service pistol calibers is the tissue that's crushed or cut by the bullet's contact with it and the depth of the wound channel created by the bullet's crush cavity.
Why 12" because it's highly unlikely that the bad guy will pose for you like in the targets you practice with. More than likely he will be at an angle or have his hands up in front of him. Either way, angle or hands, you will have to penetrate more than 4" to get to the blood bearing organs. The only way to stop an attacker short of a CNS hit is to have him bleed out. Bleed out is done my a deep and large wound channel not by the mythical "shock" of energy dump.
 

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Sounds like a lot of "what ifs" and arbitrary performance number of 12" for me to jump on the "under powered" bandwagon. Sorry, I've been around claims of gains and what one car part will do better than another too long to just take things at face value. Sounds like someone wanted to move some larger caliber stock to me.

As for transfer of energy, why are flat or hollow points used over FMJ for hunting??? Thats what I'm getting at. They expand, transfer the enegery, and do the damage when FMJ will pass through and the animal will probably still run. It doesn't make sense to use FMJ in a .380 over a defensive round, when it will make a much smaller wound. Ya, it may penetrate more, but it is going to have to be a more exact shot the actually kill or stop quickly.
 

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I'd think a frangible 380 would just about guarantee you don't kill a bystander on accident, but it wont be any more effective on the BGs either.
 
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