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Why Competition and "Bullseye" Shooting Will Kill You

16K views 99 replies 46 participants last post by  Flamingsuit 
#1 ·
It never ceases to amaze me how stupid conversations on gun fora are when it comes to the difference between combat accuracy and competition "bullseye" shooting.

Combat shooting is about placing EFFECTIVE hits on target, as much as necessary, to NEUTRALIZE the threat. What does "neutralize' mean? It means you have pumped enough lead into the bad guy to prevent him from doing anymore harm.

Talk to any true expert in this subject matter and they will tell you:

1) The handgun is a weak weapon to begin with.
2) Most handgun fights take place within 15 feet, and last no more than three seconds, and no more than three shot.
3) You have to be able to get shots off quickly, using your front sight only, and aim for center mass.

This drives the competition kind of shooters nuts. They think the ultimate goal of all shooting is to put rounds through the same hole in paper.

NO.

The goal is to make the EMT's job hard, or the coroner's job hard. If you are putting rounds in the same or close to the same hole, you are are not placing shots EFFECTIVELY.

The goal is to get as many shots into center mass as required to stop the bad buy.

Head shots? Cool, if possible.

Shots to the "electrical" or "circulation" sytem...yes, ideal.

Putting shots into the chest and stomach cavity as many as needed? Ideal. But put shots into the pelvis, and the guy is going DOWN. No question. Put four shots into the chest general area, and he is having a bad day. Don't stop shooting until he is down and not moving. Look for the hand so hang loosely, a sign he is dead or unconscience. Be ready to pump a couple more into the not not-moving bad guy if it looks like he is still squirming.

If you think that in a gun fight you will have time to get your sights aligned perfectly and squeeze off "perfect" shots, this will just get you dead, dead and ... dead.

The goal is to engage your threat with the front sight on target and squeeze off as many shots as required to neutralize the bad guy.

End of sermon.
 
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#2 ·
Wut did I just read?
 
#6 · (Edited)
I bet that mounted police officer from Texas could drill the same holes at 7 yards. Let's see someone who can't drill the same holes at 7 yards come up with a 150 yard shot.

Ever hear Louis Awerbuck give his presentation on target selection and human anatomy?

And I'd love to see someone who simply unloads the entire mag at a man-sized target at 3 yards and calls it a day because all of his shots managed to be "combat effective" run through the Rogers Reactive Steel setup.

I also wonder why it is that -ALL- of the BTDT instructors, be they teachers of sighted shooting or threat-focused skills, that -ALL- of them utilize objective shooting standards (that incorporate the balance of speed versus accuracy, as delineated by the pressure of time and distance).

---

The fundamentals of marksmanship are called "the fundamentals" for a reason. Those who cannot execute the fundamentals static, with a non-moving target, under no stress also will not be able to execute those fundamentals on a moving target, while they are moving, when they are under stress.

"Combat accuracy" is what our performance degrades to when we are actually under the stresses of dire, life-or-death situations.

It is not something to aspire to. It is not a standard to practice towards.

Clint Smith says that we train to magnificence so that we can fall back to adequate.

If you can only shoot adequately, what will happen when you're under life-or-death stress?

Strive for that single hole, no matter how fast you're shooting or moving or how far or how erratic the target. Strive for magnificence.

Understand that when you actually see that single hole, it's time to push yourself even harder - to push yourself until you see that group opening up again. Press-on until that hole shrinks down to that single ragged chunk yet again. Rinse and repeat.

That is how to excel. That is how to get better.

I want to shoot better than the guy I'm having a gunfight with.

Being content with "combat effective" shots in a training context will not allow me to excel.

Bullseye pistol shooting focuses on absolute perfection in the execution of the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship. There is a place for this in my training. Without proper fundamentals, I will not be able to achieve *any* other level of competence.

Competition shooting focuses on speed, efficiency, and the processing of problems under the imposed stress of time. There is a place for this in my training. Marksmanship in the competition context is inherently about the balance between speed and accuracy, which is just as valid for engaging flat cardboard as it is a live threat (regardless of distance - remember, it is the balance between speed versus accuracy). Effective gun-handling techniques - everything from muzzle awareness and trigger discipline, is also inherent to competitive shooting sports: from reloads to basic firearms manipulation, competition teaches us efficiency, economy, and certainty.

Force-on-force training pressure-cooks tactics and strategy: yet none of this would effective if the shooter cannot execute the fundamentals of marksmanship.
 
#10 ·
I bet that mounted police officer from Texas could drill the same holes at 7 yards.

Let's see someone who can't drill the same holes at 7 yards come up with a 150 yard shot.

The fundamentals of marksmanship are called "the fundamentals" for a reason. Those who cannot execute the fundamentals static, with a non-moving target, under no stress also will not be able to execute those fundamentals on a moving target, while they are moving, when they are under stress.

"Combat accuracy" is what our performance degrades to when we are actually under the stresses of dire, life-or-death situations.

It is not something to aspire to. It is not a standard to practice towards.

Clint Smith says that we train to magnificence so that we can fall back to adequate.

If you can only shoot adequately, what will happen when you're under life-or-death stress?

Strive for that single hole, no matter how fast you're shooting or moving or how far or how erratic the target. Strive for magnificence.

Understand that when you actually see that single hole, it's time to push yourself even harder - to push yourself until you see that group opening up again.

That is how to excel. That is how to get better.

I want to shoot better than the guy I'm having a gunfight with.

Being content with "combat effective" shots in a training context will not allow me to excel.

Bullseye pistol shooting focuses on absolute perfection in the execution of the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship. There is a place for this in my training. Without proper fundamentals, I will not be able to achieve *any* other level of competence.

Competition shooting focuses on speed, efficiency, and the processing of problems under the imposed stress. There is a place for this in my training. Marksmanship in the competition context is inherently about the balance between speed and accuracy, which is just as valid for engaging flat cardboard as it is a live threat (regardless of distance - remember, it is the balance between speed versus accuracy). Effective gun-handling techniques - everything from muzzle awareness and trigger discipline, is also inherent to competitive shooting sports: from reloads to basic firearms manipulation, competition teaches us efficiency, economy, and certainty.

Force-on-force training pressure-cooks tactics and strategy: yet none of this would effective if the shooter cannot execute the fundamentals of marksmanship.
 
#12 ·
Better sermon than last Sunday! lol


While I find it fun and a little rewarding to bust paper in a small group at various distances it sure is fun to practice drawing and squeezing off, at least two rounds, as quickly as humanly possible with some sort of "hurt zone" accuracy.
 
#14 ·
Shoot them if they're squirming? I sure hope you never have to use lethal force because the prosecutor will love it when they dig up this post.

You shoot until the threat stops, period.
 
#15 ·
^ Speaking of other fallacies and bad advice in the OP:

Talk to any true expert in this subject matter and they will tell you:

1) The handgun is a weak weapon to begin with.

<snip>

But put shots into the pelvis, and the guy is going DOWN. No question.
Let's see what some actual experts have to say:

Aiming for the Pelvis

Post #12 in that thread is DocGKR. He's an actual SME where it comes to terminal ballistics. He in-turn quotes Fackler.

Not like that's actual advice, from vetted experts or anything.....

And since Amsdorf's OP deals with the supposed non-importance of being able to place shots with accuracy and precision, consider that we know now that a typical defensive handgun caliber will not typically break the pelvis (here's that "handgun is a weak weapon to begin with" quote above!!!), and that to effect an immediate stop, damage must be effected to the actual joint, which is only about the size of a baseball...which is approximately 3 inches in diameter.

So you'll have to be a good shot to actually hit that, right? Especially if that small target is moving in an erratic manner. Especially if that small target is disguised with clothing. Especially if you, the shooter, are under that life-or-death stress?

Again, self-contradictory advice.
 
#22 · (Edited)
^ I'd like tulips. :smile:

Come on, Cuda66, tell us what you'd like, too! We're all sharing! :wink: :smile:

----

Oh, and BTW, Amsdorf, since you like to follow Mr. Vickers so much (for those who don't know, Google search keywords "ptmccain vickers soldier systems" for some hilarity).....

How well do you shoot the 10/10/10 ? REF: Larry Vickers The Test

You do realize that the Vickers/Hackathorn 10/10/10 is a rigorous test of the fundamentals of pistol marksmanship, don't you? And that legions of serious shooters, including guys like Greg Ellifritz, uses it as a benchmark of their mastery of basic technique REF: 10-10-10 Shooting Drill Active Response Training

And you do realize: Accuracy

Vickers even holds his students to the B8 repair center at 25 yards.

Accuracy isn't important in a gunfight, right?

Vickers would certainly suggest otherwise.

What about the Defoor Standards. What about Super Dave's "Iron Cross?"
 
#31 · (Edited)
And just in case Amsdorf is tempted to be glib again, I'm going to keep hammering this.

AAR Vickers Tactical 3 day Advanced Handgun Carbine class 06 17-06 19 11

^ Again, it's not like Vickers really places an emphasis on accuracy, right, Amsdorf?

And if we expand things to beyond Mr. Vickers (not that we would need to, given the known quantity that is his teachings), the late Mr. Louis Awerbuck's presentation on target selection was among one of my "Eureka!" moments this year.

And along that particular line, we can expand things to beyond what is seen on the flat range - i.e. the "real world."

LOUIS AWERBUCK s Target Systems for training

When the relationship between you and the target is truly three-dimensional, it becomes, as rob_s on Pistol-Forum relates, "ultimately you are shooting for a golfball at the base of the skull at the back and a baseball at the center of the chest in both the X and Y axis."

Those aren't targets that'll require any type of accuracy, right?

Particularly as both you and the target are moving, that really doesn't require any execution of the fundamentals of marksmanship. Right?
 
#32 ·
just for posterity...keep in mind the three-dimensional game also incorporates innocents in a public or private setting, which means since liability co-pilots every round that exits the muzzle, accuracy under stress is a critical skillset to possess..

Panic fire will always lower effectiveness...hence the emphasis on fundamentals and the reason for training accordingly...

For the record...Vickers is an @$$hole but his credentials are unquestionable
 
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#40 ·
I would rather be trained to be as accurate as possible so that if/when I do need to defend my life with my gun and all that remains is my training I can still place accurate shots on target.

Since Vickers has already been brought in this thread, here is a video that has been discussed in a different thread. For these guys accuracy is paramount even under extreme stress.
 
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