Show clear & hammer down with mag. disconnect

Discussion in 'Gun Games: Shooting Competition' started by darkvibe, Dec 15, 2007.

  1. darkvibe

    darkvibe XDTalk 500 Member

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    I have a completely random question. I guess it belongs in this forum.

    I see the range master asking people to show clear and drop the hammer after shooting in action pistol. What happens if one were to shoot a Browning Hi-power where you can't drop the hammer w/o a magazine in the gun? Mine has the disconnect removed but I was just wondering.

    Can you even shoot a gun with that "safety" feature removed? Is there an exception for guns with the disconnect?
     
  2. ROFL XD

    ROFL XD XDTalk 100 Member

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    One guy that shoots an M&P around here that has that feature just keeps an empty mag in his back pocket for this purpose. It throws off some RO's at first, but they're ok with it once you explain that it's the only way to drop the hammer/striker.
     
  3. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    Show the SO the empty mag...then insert it and pull the trigger. ;)

    I was thinking of cutting a short piece of wood to use on my M&P 9...

    There is no IDPA rule that prohibits using guns with the mag safety removed.
     
  4. Loves2Shoot

    Loves2Shoot Official Site Vendor Supporting Vendor

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    The dummy mag is generally preferable to the empty one. A non black color is good too.
     
  5. AKpredator

    AKpredator XDTalk 100 Member

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    Stick a finger in the well and press on the mag safety. Hammer will fall.:cool:

    No smarta$$ remarks from you perverts out there. :twisted:
     
  6. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    My finger isn't long enough to that on my M&P 9...maybe I should just sell it??? :mrgreen:
     
  7. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    Who sells dummy mags?
     
  8. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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  9. darkvibe

    darkvibe XDTalk 500 Member

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  10. GarySTL

    GarySTL XDTalk 100 Member

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    I'm a IDPA SO and several of our shooters have a mag that's painted a light color that they use for that purpose. They also notify the SO before they shoot the stage, just to ensure no misunderstandings.
     
  11. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    I just re-discovered my IDPA 3/4" Checker (wood dowel) in my range bag last night. I stuck it in my M&P's magwell and pulled trigger..."CLICK"! :cool:
     
  12. Gryff

    Gryff XDTalk 500 Member

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    As an S.O., I wouldn't accept that. Since the purpose of the "Hammer down" command is to prove that the chamber is empty by dry firing the gun, I would be concerned that using your finger would not actually allow the gun to dry fire (versus just de-cocking the hammer like a Beretta or Sig safety does).

    I understand the mechanics of the M&P, but I believe in consistency as an S.O. And since I am not an expert on the functioning of every pistol out there, I am going to be cautious and require the use of an empty mag in the gun to allow the trigger to be pulled. It's a pain for the shooter, but it allows me to insure that an unloaded gun is being holstered by the competitor.

    Jim
     
  13. AKpredator

    AKpredator XDTalk 100 Member

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    The hammer will fall on BHP's with mag safety intact. If there is a round in the chamber, it will fire! I agree... this is uncoventional but will work fine for the pupose of hammer down reqs. Using empty mag is better, though.
     
  14. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    Um...all you need to hear is the striker go "click" to know that the gun is safe. Either it does or it doesn't...there isn't an in between.

    A side from that, you should have already looked in the chamber to make sure that it is empty. The "hammer down" step is merely a back-up to your visual inspection.

    As an SO, SOI and former MD, I'll take the use of a finger or stick any day over having the shooter insert a mag into the gun.
     
  15. Gryff

    Gryff XDTalk 500 Member

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    Sorry, but "click" does not note the release of the hammer/striker in a way that guarantees an empty chamber. My Beretta goes click when you flip on the safety, but it is only de-cocking the gun.

    Sound to me is not an adequate guarantee. I want to see the simple, straight-forward process of pulling the trigger. If you have to stick an empty mag in the gun to do this, so be it.

    Other S.O.s may accept a different process, but I will not. It may be a pain for the shooter, but safety is my concern, not the shooter's convenience.

    Jim
     
  16. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    Sorry to belabor the point but... ;)

    Even when there's a mag in the gun, all you get to let you know (?) that the striker has fallen is a "click".

    The only way to get a click when the trigger is pulled, on a gun that has a mag disconnect, is to deactivate the mag disconnect. The method used to deactivate it is irrelevant. Either the mag disconnect is deactivated or it isn't.

    If I put my stick in the gun, pull the trigger AND you hear a click...you can be just as sure that the striker has been released as when I inserted a magazine.

    From a safety stand point, using one's finger or a stick is much better than having a shooter insert a magazine. By requiring a magazine to be inserted in the gun, you are introducing another variable into the equation that MAY, at some point, cause a problem.

    You also KNOW 100% that if I use my stick (or finger) that there is NO way I've combined gun with ammo.
     
  17. SoupOrMan

    SoupOrMan XDTalk 100 Member

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    For USPSA folks, there's an answer to this in the latest issue of Front Sight.

    Basically it boils down to "If you have a magazine disconnect safety you are allowed to release the hammer by inserting an empty magazine." The only thing that is necessary is to pull the trigger and make the hammer or striker click audibly, without either touching the hammer or using a decocker. Basically you're covered under Rule 8.3.7.1 if you have to use a magazine to safely drop the hammer or striker on your pistol.
     
  18. Gryff

    Gryff XDTalk 500 Member

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    Yes, exactly. When you put the mag in and pull the trigger, I don't have to wonder about the mechanics. I know that the hammer is falling and a live round will be discharged if it is present in the chamber.

    Not to mention I don't have to worry about muzzle direction and/or damage to the competitor's hand if a live round is discharged when they are using the stick or finger method of mag-safety disconnect.

    That's assuming that I, as S.O., understand the mechanics of YOUR gun. That is not my job. I understand sticking a mag in and pulling the trigger, but I should not be expected to know exactly what is happening mechanically if you are shoving your finger or a stick up your magwell. You keep the range safe through consistent, proven procedures, even if it is slightly more inconvenient for the shooter.

    I still disagree, and therefore, I'll accept the risk. If the competitor inserts a mag with a live round AND they chamber it before I can stop them (unlikely), they will still be discharging the gun in a controlled situation, with me standing right next to them and the muzzle pointed down range. Granted, they are DQ'd, but nobody gets hurt.

    But if I assume their word that what they are doing with a stick or finger is valid, then I have COMPLETELY failed as a Safety Officer. You may be right in what you tell me, but you are still asking me to trust your word. S.O.s need to trust what they know so that accidents don't happen.

    I understand what you are saying and where you are coming from, but I am looking for consistency. If and when CZ, Beretta, Springfield, Glock, Taurus, and Tanfolio all come out with mag disconnect safeties, I am not going to bother learning what process is needed for deactivating the safety with something other than a mag. For me, it's simple, the mag works for all of them, so use the mag.

    Best,

    Jim
     
  19. DM-SC

    DM-SC XDTalk 500 Member

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    Fine...do it your way, then! :)

    Why, if the as you stated, the gun was discharged in a controlled and safe manner, would you DQ the shooter?
     
  20. Gryff

    Gryff XDTalk 500 Member

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    Because I have ordered the shooter to unload the gun. An accidental discharge after the course of fire is finished is an immediate DQ.

    Granted, the SO needs to be held partially accountable for not insuring that the gun is unloaded, but it is still an accidental discharge.

    I can't fathom how an SO would allow this to happen, but I mention it because at the last USPSA local match I shot, another competitor was DQ'd for this exact reason.

    The only thing that I can think of is a show-off competitor who does the whole unload process like he is trying to impress the crowd. If he goes hammer down before I tell him, it is possible that he could discharge a round that is still in the chamber because I didn't have the chance to visually inspect it.

    But the point is that I'm standing right there, insuring that his muzzle is pointed downrange. If the gun goes "bang" when nobody expects it, at least I have some amount of control over where that bullet is going.

    Sorry to make this a big discussion...but it is definitely one that needs to be addressed for those of us who act as Safety Officers in USPSA or IDPA.

    Best,

    Jim
     

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