Shipping ammo, arghhhhhhh

Discussion in 'The Ammo Can' started by socuban, Sep 22, 2008.

  1. socuban

    socuban XDTalk 100 Member

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    Anyone tried shipping ammo lately?

    I did today and what a PITA!:x:x

    I get to a UPS "store" to ship some ammo and the guy asks me what's in the box. I tell him it's ammo and he gives me a panic look. He then asks me if they are bullets:confused: I say yea............duh. He asks me if it is live bullets. I look at the box for a few seconds and then tell him I think they're dead:mrgreen:.

    He tells me I have to go to a "hub" if I want to ship live ammo.:confused:

    So I see a post office on the way to a "hub" and pop in to try and send the ammo thru them 'cause I can't stand UPS anyways.

    When I get to the counter, I get asked the typical is it hazardous etc. questions, so I tell the clerk they are bullets. She gives me the same frustrated look and tells me USPS can't ship bullets. So I ask her why? Says they use commercial planes to move the mail and don't want to risk shipping explosives.

    I respond by saying that I travel with live rounds in my checked baggage and mostly on international flights, then she gives me a puzzled look:???:, later.............

    So I finally get to the "hub" nearest where I'm at and the clerk makes me buy an extra service of "adult signature required" (+$5.25 more than the shipping estimate) because she did not want a minor at the other end to receive it and do something "stupid":confused:.

    To top it off, I get home and read this in the news from the same place I just left:shock:


    By ELIOT KLEINBERG
    Palm Beach Post Staff Writer
    Monday, September 22, 2008

    "RIVIERA BEACH- — Police arrested three men they say shot a man several times this morning in the parking lot of the UPS facility at Blue Heron Boulevard.

    The three fled to the nearby Stonybrook Apartments, 1555 Martin Luther King Blvd., where an officer spotted them bailing out of a white pickup, police said.

    Lt. Alex Freeman said the man, a UPS employee, was struck once in the leg. His injuries were not life threatening, Freeman said. He said police do not yet know the motive."


    [​IMG]


    [​IMG]

    Note to self: USE ALL AMMO EVEN IF IT MEANS HAVING TO BUY ANOTHER GUN!

    end of rant......................I think

     
  2. KNO3

    KNO3 XDTalk 20K Member Founding Member

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    not surprised, most MLK streets are not in the nicest areas
     
  3. UncleBuck

    UncleBuck XDTalk 5K Member Founding Member

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    I know a guy that shipped ammo by boxing it up himself and just shipped it without saying a thing.... :rolleyes:
     
  4. XD_from_LBC

    XD_from_LBC XDTalk 100 Member

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    Ain't that the truth!

    When I used to live in Long Beach, MLK north of where I lived was friggin scary!!

    I would not want to be caught near there after dark.
     
  5. jasonb4x4

    jasonb4x4 XDTalk 100 Member

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    when I bought ammo online they sent it regular usps to me. I don't think it went on a plane though. I think they just don't know any better.
     
  6. Sub

    Sub XDTalk Newbie

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    I don't see why you can't do UPS Ground. I know when i order hazardous mats ie paint and other crap like that i'm force to do ground as my shipping.
     
  7. Cannibul

    Cannibul XDTalk 5K Member Founding Member

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    You can exploit the idiots. There is a huge difference between bullets and ammo.

    People ship "bullets" all the time via USPS. Ammo however is a no-no.
     
  8. Hank Ellis

    Hank Ellis XDTalk 100 Member

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    Shipping ammunition is not that big a deal if you know what you have to do and what you can't do. I've got training in HazMat shipping and the following is what I've posted on other firearm forums. Follow these procedures and it will be a non-issue.
    ---------------------------------------------------

    All regulation references are from Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations.

    Besides these shipping regulations be aware that BATFE regulations also apply. Don't ship to felons, kids, etc. Most likely you'll be required to do a "Adult Signature" add-on to cover the shipper.

    Also check on the state laws. More than one online ammo dealer won't ship to California or New Jersey.
    ========================================

    Sec. 173.63 Packaging exceptions.

    (b) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices.
    (1) Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices (which are used to project fastening devices) which have been classed as a Division 1.4S explosive may be reclassed, offered for transportation, and transported as ORM-D material when packaged in accordance with paragraph (b)(2) of this section; such transportation is excepted from the requirements of subparts E (Labeling) and F (Placarding) of part 172 of this subchapter. Cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices that may be shipped as ORM-D material is limited to:
    (i) Ammunition for rifle, pistol or shotgun;
    (ii) Ammunition with inert projectiles or blank ammunition;
    (iii) Ammunition having no tear gas, incendiary, or detonating explosive projectiles;
    (iv) Ammunition not exceeding 12.7 mm (50 caliber or 0.5 inch) for rifle or pistol, cartridges or 8 gauge for shotshells; and
    (v) Cartridges, power devices which are used to project fastening devices.
    (2) Packaging for cartridges, small arms, and cartridges power devices as ORM-D material must be as follows:
    (i) Ammunition must be packed in inside boxes, or in partitions which fit snugly in the outside packaging, or in metal clips;
    (ii) Primers must be protected from accidental initiation;
    (iii) Inside boxes, partitions or metal clips must be packed in securely-closed strong outside packagings;
    (iv) Maximum gross weight is limited to 30 kg (66 pounds) per package; and
    (v) Cartridges, power devices which are used to project fastening devices and 22 caliber rim-fire cartridges may be packaged loose in strong outside packagings.

    ----------------------------------------

    What this means is you can ship ammunition up to and including 8ga shotshells or .50 cal ammunition. The ammo must be packed in such a way that accidental primer ignition doesn't happen. Plastic ammo boxes are fine as is the way factory ammo comes. Pack shotshells the way the factory does it. .22 ammo only may be packed loose in a box. Pack each box inside another corrogated cardboard box. Used wadded newspaper to keep the boxes from rattling around during shipment. Max gross weight of each package is 66 pounds. If you are shipping a large amount, it has to broken up into lots no heavier than 66 pounds each.

    Now that you've got it all packed, lets label it. Since we've reclassed this ammunition from a Class 1.4S Explosive to ORM-D by following the regs in 173.63 the labeling and paperwork requirements are less stringent.

    ----------------------------------------

    Sec. 172.316 Packagings containing materials classed as ORM-D.

    (a) Each non-bulk packaging containing a material classed as ORM-D must be marked on at least one side or end with the ORM-D designation immediately following or below the proper shipping name of the material. The ORM designation must be placed within a rectangle that is approximately 6.3 mm (0.25 inches) larger on each side than the designation. The designation for ORM-D must be:
    (1) ORM-D-AIR for an ORM-D that is prepared for air shipment and packaged in accordance with the provisions of Sec. 173.27 of this subchapter.
    (2) ORM-D for an ORM-D other than as described in paragraph (a)(1) of this section.
    (b) When the ORM-D marking including the proper shipping name can not be affixed on the package surface, it may be on an attached tag.
    (c) The marking ORM-D is the certification by the person offering the packaging for transportation that the material is properly described, classed, packaged, marked and labeled (when appropriate) and in proper condition for transportation according to the applicable regulations of this subchapter. This form of certification does not preclude the requirement for a certificate on a shipping paper when required by subpart C of this part.

    ----------------------------------------

    On at least one side, not the top, place label that states "ORM-D". Just above the label you just slapped on the box put the proper shipping name "CARTRIDGES, SMALL ARMS" in printed letters. I've created a JPEG that has a decent sized ORM-D label with the proper shipping name as required. Problem is I can't figure out how to insert a file into this thread.

    NOW, you can take the package to your shipper and you're 100% legal and by-the-book. By affixing the ORM-D label to the box you are certifying that what is inside is what you are saying it is and that you packed it as it should be. No further paperwork is required.

    The local Post Office (USPS) will not ship ammunition or any other HazMat or ORM-D for that matter. FedEx or UPS are the usual choices. With these shippers you must go to a hub, not one of the strip mall 'stores'.

    And if you're thinking about just throwing the ammo in a box and not telling anybody, don't! Penalties for knowingly shipping a HazMat are stiff and if an incident occurs do you want the first responders to be in danger because you didn't want to be inconvenienced? Remember ValueJet? That crash was due to improperly packed and shipped HazMat. Do it right or don't do it at all.
     
  9. KingWulfgar

    KingWulfgar XDTalk 500 Member

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    Your problem: A UPS Store is not UPS. I've found that in general, they are morons, anti-gun (won't accept them for shipment even to FFL), and overpriced. I was trying to send an Xbox360 to a friend when they first came out and they wouldn't send it via his Corporate UPS account because they "ran out of the airbills." The only option they offered was to ship it priority overnight for about 3x what it would've cost to go overnight under the corporate rate. They're crooks around here.
     
  10. socuban

    socuban XDTalk 100 Member

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    Great post Hank! On the flip side, I did receive an order today from ATG via UPS.

    [​IMG]
     
  11. griz

    griz XDTalk 500 Member Founding Member

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    I used FedEx once to ship live ammo.... BUT.... I had to have it picked up with a call tag from a FedEx account holder. They would NOT accept the package if I took it to the hub insisting on a driver picking it up. The package had to be clearly marked with the ORMD - Small Arms Ammunition sticker as well. It really is a PITA.
     
  12. Wired

    Wired XDTalk 5K Member Founding Member

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    So, were you shipping bullets or ammo? If it was bullets, the USPS will do that. My father ordered a whole bunch online and they came in one of the flat rate boxes. The carrier had to get my dad to bring in the package because it was too heavy for her. The bullets alone are not hazmat, ammunition is though.
     
  13. XDragon

    XDragon XDTalk 100 Member Founding Member

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    I went through the same thing when shipping a gun back to S&W for repair. I was using a S&W UPS label and the store stated that I had to go to a hub also. However I went back the next day, a different person was at the counter, I said nothing and away it went.

    I learned awhile ago that any streets named after a deceased prominent African American is not where you want to be after dark.
    With all due respect my comment is not meant to be racial but just a result of my experience.
     
  14. Edubya

    Edubya XDTalk 500 Member Founding Member

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    Hank, I for one appreciate your posting of this regulation and your summary.
    Excuse my ignorance, but I'm having a problem with one small part:
    requirement for a certificate... I went to the web site for Title 49 of the Code of Federal Regulations and this is what I was getting:
    (C) 1.5 times the vapor pressure at 55 °C (131 °) less 100 kPa (15 psia).
    (3) Notwithstanding the provisions of paragraph (c)(2) of this section—
    (i) Hazardous materials may be contained in an inner packaging which...

    I don't comprehend the connection.:confused:

    Again, Thanks for your post.
     
  15. Hank Ellis

    Hank Ellis XDTalk 100 Member

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    Not a problem. That's what we're here for, to pass on knowledge.
    Oh boy. You are asking a question that gets deep into what my HazMat training prepped me for.

    Subpart C starts at 49CFR 172.200 and currently ends at 172.205 and gets into the shipping paperwork that must accompany the shipment. Generally, every HazMat shipment must have paperwork that fully describes the material, how much of it, who to contact for emergencies, and a bunch of other babble. This deep paperwork is why 99.9% of the people can't ship full blown HazMat. Even I can't do it away from work unless I go through a bunch of paperwork through UPS or FedEx. The paperwork must be in a very specific format with material description, packing group, and other info. Very easy to screw it up.

    49CFR 172.200 states the following.
    -----------------------------------------------------------
    Subpart C--Shipping Papers

    Sec. 172.200 Applicability.

    (a) Description of hazardous materials required. Except as otherwise
    provided in this subpart, each person who offers a hazardous material
    for transportation shall describe the hazardous material on the shipping
    paper in the manner required by this subpart.
    (b) This subpart does not apply to any material, other than a
    hazardous substance, hazardous waste or marine pollutant, that is--
    {edited for space}
    or
    (3) An ORM-D, except when the material is offered or intended for
    transportation by air.
    -----------------------------------------------------------

    This is your out on the paperwork for shipping ammunition.

    172.200 translated to English means "Description of hazardous materials is required except for ORM-D when shipped by ground." Ship it by air and all bets are off and you are required to do the full paperwork route. You don't want to go there.

    So, pack the ammo like I described in the previous post and it magically transforms from a 1.4S Explosive to ORM-D. That alone dumps a bunch of the paperwork. Ship it by ground and the rest of it is dumped.

    The absolute most paperwork you should do is when you fill out the little form at the carriers hub with your address, the receiving address, and a description of the contents. Where you'd put books, grandmas lamp, or whatever, put "Cartridges, Small Arms".

    One little tidbit I've noticed when I've shipped ammo. Even going to a hub the counter folk are not up on HazMat or ORM-D shipping and may give you a hard time about it. They'd rather tell you NO than bother taking to time to work through the issue. Both carriers have a 800 number of people who do know what it takes to ship this stuff. Stand your ground. You've done the right thing and, packed and labeled the package your offering. Once I answer a couple questions to the HazMat specialists they tell me to give the phone back to the counter person and in short order my package is on its way. Probably wouldn't hurt to print out the applicable parts of 49CFR and have it with you.

    FWIW: I've answered this question on how to ship ammo on several forums. Every few months the question comes up again. Maybe it ought to be a sticky somewhere.

     

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