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Opinions please...

4K views 49 replies 16 participants last post by  TSiWRX 
#1 ·
Hi guys,

Those of you that have many handguns probably have some that you shoot great... and some that you shoot not so great.

If you have a pistol that you shoot "not so great", and it is not a problem with the pistol, then most people will tell you that you need to adjust the way you shoot it... your grip, trigger finger, stance... etc.

So here is my question.

1. You have a pistol that you shoot consistently off... be it left, right, high, low... whatever. You shoot a good group... just off center. All of your others you shoot just fine.

2. The pistol is dead on... sights are perfect... hickock45 and Jerry Miculek could shoot the wings off a fly with it.

Why not adjust the sights on that handgun so that you shoot it well... rather than you trying to adjust to the way that you have to shoot it?

My wife and I were discussing this... and got me to thinking. Now my head hurts. ;-)
 
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#4 · (Edited)
Just out of curiosity, which model handgun is giving you this issue?

There could be several factors causing you problems, beside the sights. Sights can be set dead-on in a rest, but the size of grips & backstrap panels, trigger shoe profile, etc, can also play a factor. And these tend to be very subjective from shooter to shooter, due to the varying hand sizes, finger reach and so on. I would look at all angles before adjusting the perfectly aligned sights.
 
#6 ·
It depends entirely on the situation.

The main point--does another experienced shooter put it on target?

If so, it is you, and something you aren't doing right. By adjusting the sights, you are not addressing the problem, and you will never improve as a shooter...odds are, you'll have to keep adjusting the sights to compensate as whatever you're doing gets worse.

However:

Can you drill the target out with another pistol, or pistols--with the caveat of you didn't adjust the sights on them as well (if you need to adjust the sights on every pistol you shoot--the problem is DEFINITELY you)? If other pistols work for you and one doesn't...and we've verified that the sights are on--then that particular pistol is just a bad choice for you. Dump it and find something that does.
 
#8 ·
It depends entirely on the situation.

The main point--does another experienced shooter put it on target?

If so, it is you, and something you aren't doing right. By adjusting the sights, you are not addressing the problem, and you will never improve as a shooter...odds are, you'll have to keep adjusting the sights to compensate as whatever you're doing gets worse.

However:

Can you drill the target out with another pistol, or pistols--with the caveat of you didn't adjust the sights on them as well (if you need to adjust the sights on every pistol you shoot--the problem is DEFINITELY you)? If other pistols work for you and one doesn't...and we've verified that the sights are on--then that particular pistol is just a bad choice for you. Dump it and find something that does.

^ This, +1.

--------

Also:

Chris Cerino - who is currently undergoing cancer treatment, so send him some love, everybody!!! - wrote this article a while back:

TRAINING TIPS: Need a sight adjustment? Think again! - TheGunMag - The Official Gun Magazine of the Second Amendment Foundation

Note that Cerino took you back to his time at the Federal Air Marshal Academy.
 
#7 ·
Rank order of my guns based on how accurately *I* can shoot with them:
- 92A1
- XD Service
- Shield
- RIA 1911
- P226

I just need more trigger time with the P226. I changed the grips and accuracy improved, just not enough.

No plans to drift the sights, just more practice.
 
#12 ·
I've sold several guns, some very high end, because I didn't shoot them particularly well. Nothing wrong with that as long as you feel comfortable that you and the gun are just not a good match rather than you having a poor day.
 
#15 ·
Rank order of my guns based on how accurately *I* can shoot with them:
- 92A1
- XD Service
- Shield
- RIA 1911
- P226
.
That surprises me a little.

Given that everybody's different, I get the same grip and straight trigger press w my Beretta 92 and my SiGs (and a couple of other "big" handguns) which translates to them being the best shooters for me...even better than a 1911.
 
#20 ·
Depends on the size of your hands, dexterity, trigger control, any number of factors.

A simple theoretical example... Small grip, large hands, too much finger past the trigger, pulls the muzzle to the right as trigger is pulled (assuming right-handed), shoots right.

It's more about the rearward motion of your trigger finger, flinching, weak hand interfering with trigger finger motion, etc.

It's a bit of a puzzle to me... I shoot well with my Shield, but my P226 with the thin E2 grips? Shooting left. I put Hogue rubber grips on for a thicker grip and I am shooting better. Doesn't always compute.
 
#22 ·
^ And to even further expand on this and highlight on that individual difference, take a look here at what Pat McNamara suggests:



And anyone who say "no way" to this? All I have to ask of those individuals are whether or not they've seen McNamara shoot.

randyd, as Zanderman and Cuda66 noted, it's about how that specific gun's physical characteristics - including its trigger path - mates with any one specific person's anatomy. And on top of that, you have to realize that the balance between speed and accuracy is a variable sliding scale, and that what works best for one type of shooting may not work for another.

Find what works *_for you_* with the type of shooting you do. :)
 
#23 ·
I would say that the problem would possibly be in trigger pull weight. Perhaps in such a situation having the pull weights of the other handguns checked and the problem gun being set to the similar weight would solve the problem. If not, then changing the rear site to adjust accordingly on that one particular handgun would be a viable option.
 
#24 · (Edited)
I was developing a pretty typical "low/left" POI early last year that I couldn't seem to shake. I read an article last summer regarding the grip(s) used by a few top shooters and found that placing my offhand thumb against the slide and "muscle-ing" the front sight is perfectly acceptable...I'd been trying to minimize contact w the frame but that was obviously giving me issues. I was letting the gun's grip dictate my grip. In an effort to avoid interfering w accuracy I was letting the gun call the shots (pun intended). My groups were good, but my trigger press was dicking-up my accuracy. With my thumb along the frame I can feel when my press is bad and, hopefully, correct myself before I send a flyer into the 8-ring.

Not everyone agrees w this, but I say do what works. This obviously doesn’t take into account a situation where the off-hand is incapacitated... best-case scenario stuff for range/games.
 
#25 ·
^ I think that a lot of people misinterpret the modern "thumbs foward grip" for more than what it is: i.e. that it is just a very generalized description of the way the modern grip is accomplished - without going in-depth into exactly why it is what it is.

Exactly what's "thumbs forward" is quite variable, and each shooter has his/her own take on the technique, and even among the top shooters today, you can see just how varied their individual preferences and beliefs are, where it comes to the details of what makes their grip "work" for them as individuals:

The Combat Grip

^ This article above is often cited online for "the thumbs forward grip," and was indeed what I was referenced to as must-read material when I came into the gun world about 6 years ago.

On the surface, it seems easy and cut-and-dry: "thumbs forward," right?

But it's really not.

It's full of ambiguity and subtlety. Just look at these points of variability:

Lathem/Enos's grip does not cam the wrist as forward as Sevigny's.

Enos's grip does not utilize the thumb of the support/reaction-hand.

There's a lot at-play. And not everyone will have the same results with the same technique.

"Find what works for you" is a great way to go about it.

We know the physics and biomechanics behind why the "thumbs forward" grip works so well at controlling recoil and helping action-sport-shooters achieve the BSA templates that they require in order to achieve top marks in their sport. However, the specifics as to how that grip technique is executed - just like trigger finger placement on the trigger face - needs to be adjusted to be best-fit for any one shooter as an unique individual. :)

It's way too simple to just say "thumbs forward." :) And I think it's time for more instructors and seasoned shooters to really take this into account when coaching new handgunners.
 
#26 · (Edited)
Back when I started shooting many, many many..... years ago, I only had one semi-auto handgun... a Colt Model 70. Back then... I never thought about grip, trigger finger, stance or sights. Since it was my one and only... I just practiced to be the best I could with it. After a while... I could shoot it without even using the sights anymore... just point and shoot... and I was really good with it.

After I started buying more and more handguns a few years ago... my shooting has gotten worse... because now I have to deal with many types of grips, triggers, sights, etc. That is the reason for my picking the two XDs... since both are so similar... I thought I could jump back and forth between the two without a problem. So far... that has not been the case... as the 9mm is kicking my a*s. If I get this worked out... these may be the only two handguns I shoot on a regular basis... at least until the next best thing comes along. :D
 
#27 ·
I was having similar issues--the "low lefts"--and usually, I would break it by bringing my Buckmark and several of bricks of .22 to the range, and spend an afternoon or three concentrating on fundamentals, and "getting back into the groove", so to speak.

But...I had noticed something.

I didn't have the problem with revolvers.

I didn't have the problem shooting DA autos in DA.

The issue really only croppped up when I was shooting autos in SA/striker only.

Hmmm. What was I doing different when shooting DA than when I was shooting SA?

Yes, the shot would sometimes be a little slower...but when I slowed them both down, and really paid attention...I'd still throw shots low left with SA's.

Mentioned it to a buddy, who said..."Simple--I bet you place your finger on the trigger differently".

And he was right. I'd shoot SA/striker autos with the pad of my finger; DA autos with the joint.

The light bulb went on.

So I started shooting SA's with the joint...and the problem went away.

I recently saw a video by Pat McNamara that pretty much said the same thing...get as much finger as you can on the trigger, or something to that effect.

It works for me.
 
#28 ·
I was having similar issues--the "low lefts"--and usually, I would break it by bringing my Buckmark and several of bricks of .22 to the range, and spend an afternoon or three concentrating on fundamentals, and "getting back into the groove", so to speak.

But...I had noticed something.

I didn't have the problem with revolvers.

I didn't have the problem shooting DA autos in DA.

The issue really only croppped up when I was shooting autos in SA/striker only.

Hmmm. What was I doing different when shooting DA than when I was shooting SA?

Yes, the shot would sometimes be a little slower...but when I slowed them both down, and really paid attention...I'd still throw shots low left with SA's.

Mentioned it to a buddy, who said..."Simple--I bet you place your finger on the trigger differently".

And he was right. I'd shoot SA/striker autos with the pad of my finger; DA autos with the joint.

The light bulb went on.

So I started shooting SA's with the joint...and the problem went away.

I recently saw a video by Pat McNamara that pretty much said the same thing...get as much finger as you can on the trigger, or something to that effect.

It works for me.
Love the Buckmark comment, when I find myself struggling with accuracy usually 50 rounds with the Buckmark will iron out my problems. The flinch goes away, I get smooth again, I start feeling the trigger rather than looking for results, and suddenly the problems go away.
 
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#29 ·
^ And to even further expand on this and highlight on that individual difference, take a look here at what Pat McNamara suggests:



And anyone who say "no way" to this? All I have to ask of those individuals are whether or not they've seen McNamara shoot.

randyd, as Zanderman and Cuda66 noted, it's about how that specific gun's physical characteristics - including its trigger path - mates with any one specific person's anatomy. And on top of that, you have to realize that the balance between speed and accuracy is a variable sliding scale, and that what works best for one type of shooting may not work for another.

Find what works *_for you_* with the type of shooting you do. :)
Holy crap...

I didn't even realize that you'd posted that video, but it's the one I was referencing in my previous post...

Pay attention, Cuda...
 
#30 · (Edited)
The iTarget arrived today. I ordered it Thursday morning... it was sent two day shipping... so kudos to the company.

First impressions:

It will take a little time to get used to aligning the phone and target on the sled... as well as setting up the app. to register correct hits. I may have to come up with a better method... but it works for now. It will probably get easier as we use it more.

We inserted the laser bullet in to the chamber of my wife's shield first (it has no rim... so it doesn't extract when racking the slide), since we know that the sights are dead on. We used a makeshift rest to help eliminate human error... and shot from about 8ft out. The laser hit dead on with the sights. We moved back to around 5 yards... and used a rest... same thing... dead on. My wife then fired some shots freehand... she really likes this thing... I may have to buy another so I get to use it. ;-)

The phone app works great... but as I said above... it takes some getting used to. IMO... the small screen of the phone is what makes setting up the app. a little difficult... a tablet size screen would be perfect... but will not work with the sled... and not sure it would work at all.

I give it an A score overall... I will update as we actually start using it.
 
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