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heading to the range to test hollowpoints...

6K views 59 replies 10 participants last post by  Cuda66 
#1 ·
I have a bunch of random brands of 9mm hollowpoints lying around in small numbers so I just organized and compiled all of them so I could test them on the range. I have 30 drt frangible hp's, 39 115 +p Remington hp's (not golden sabre), some magtech 115 gr hp's, Speer gold dots, federal +p+ bple (might save that for my Beretta m9a1), and a few more types of hp's. I'll update you guys after my range visit. In going to try and shoot a few good magazine full groups at each target at 15 yards.

Maybe I'm just looking for another excuse to play with my chopped xd9 at the range... I have already put 2k rounds through it since I bought it... I've spent more money on the ammo that I have put through the gun than the gun itself and its only been just shy of a month... No wonder my pockets have been pretty empty... This gun is an addiction...
 
#2 · (Edited)
Pictures from the range outing:
(Top left: DRT 85 gr frangible - Top right: 115gr +p Remington hp's - center: Hornady 115gr +p zombie max - lower left: Speer gold for +p - lower right American eagle 115gr fmj - first picture 15 yards, second picture was the same target with rounds shot from 25 yards - all rounds fired standing)






I never ever shot my glocks that well at 15 or 25 yards...



I am now happy that I can carry the ultra fast little drt 9mm rounds knowing that they will cycle reliably. I've shot watermelons with them before and they make quite a big hole and do quite a lot of damage which makes me feel comfortable with themes. Plus I shot a coyote with a .40 drt that essentially liquefied its heart... I really wouldn't want to get hit by one. I do executive protection in the suburbs of low Angeles and there are houses and children all around. No recoil and less penetration seems a bit better for my situation. That being said, I carry 3 mags of the DRT and 2 mags of the Speer gold dots.

My Springfield is now my favorite semi auto I own
 
#3 ·
Nice shooting...

However, I will disagree 100% on the DRT's. They are a gimmick round, and shallow penetration leads to failures to stop; failures to stop means more rounds fired; and more rounds fired means greater chances of misses (particularly in a dynamic situation)...and a miss is a hell of a lot more dangerous to folks down range than a round that may fully penetrate the body (which, in most cases of properly functioning JHP's, means it's lying on the ground a few feet beyond where it exited, or--more likely--stopped in the clothing of the target).

I'd run the Gold Dots, m'self.

A suggested read: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
 
#4 ·
Nice shooting...

However, I will disagree 100% on the DRT's. They are a gimmick round, and shallow penetration leads to failures to stop; failures to stop means more rounds fired; and more rounds fired means greater chances of misses (particularly in a dynamic situation)...and a miss is a hell of a lot more dangerous to folks down range than a round that may fully penetrate the body (which, in most cases of properly functioning JHP's, means it's lying on the ground a few feet beyond where it exited, or--more likely--stopped in the clothing of the target).

I'd run the Gold Dots, m'self.

A suggested read: Best Choices for Self Defense Ammo
I have hunted deer with the .223 drt and the .223 lived up to its hype in my experience.the penetration isn't that bad and I mostly deal with animal rights protesters. The 9mm DRT Will penetrate solid barriers pretty well until it's too thick for just about any other hollowpoint but the round will have broken apart and will cause less damage on the other end. When I lived in the desert I played around with all of the gimmicky ammunition and found DRT to be one of the few that performed as advertised or at least close to it. Glasers are interesting but so inconsistent that they aren't worth the money. Very fun to shoot cans full of dirt and whatnot but either type of Glaser I tried didn't even come close to the hype.

In my case I have houses in every direction and there really is no safe backstop anywhere. If I had my choice if carry a shotgun loaded with #4 buck but alas California doesn't allow security to carry shotguns. I'm worried about liability being in CA.

Either way though, the DRT's are on par with vmax rounds for effectiveness. They are about the only non lead 39gr.223 I can find that shoots accureatly out of my newish Baikal.

My biggest issue I have is that the only two guns I have gotten the rounds to feed reliably in are my Beretta m9a1 and my xd9... My G26 hated them and would deform the jack91st and get stuck and not go fully into battery. I realized that the Beretta msgs and do msgs are kind of the same and both magazines are inserted higher into the firearm and more online with the barrel than my g26 or other 9mm's that I have tried the DRT's out of.
 
#6 ·
There's a big difference between handgun and rifle rounds, and how they wound.

While I get where you are coming from, I'll stand by my assessment; they underpenetrate, which is never desirable in s defensive round.
Have you tried the round yourself? Not trying to sound defensive or combative, I'm just wondering what your experience was that turned you off to them.
 
#7 ·
Please do not carry them, and for the love of God discontinue .223 frangible use for deer.
 
#10 ·
I'm sorry but all of the deer I have shot with .223 (nearly every deer I have ever hunted in CA, as our deer are quite small) have all been DRT dead right there no pun intended. I keep my shots under 100 yards and aim for where the skull meets the spine. That is not a hard shot to pull off under 100 yards. I am also a VERY picky shot. The only deer I've ever had run on me was shot with with a .30-06 and was a thru and thru. It got about 100 yards, penetrated both lungs and nicked the heart. Plus a lot of the meat was a bit mangled.

I prefer the .223 For the sake of preserving meat. CA deer are not the largest and I like to make the most of my tags but still take the deer humanely.
 
#14 ·
#20 ·
Some people had issue with their XD feeding the big mouthed Federal hydrashok and HST reliably. 185s worked pretty well though.

Just goes to show that you need to try out your defensive ammo thoroughly despite the reputation of the manufacturer.

124 and 147gr HST and Gold Dot and Ranger-T are excellent performers for a self defense round though.

In a pistol, it's gonna be hard cast or hollowpoint for serious work in my guns.
 
#23 ·
Some people had issue with their XD feeding the big mouthed Federal hydrashok and HST reliably. 185s worked pretty well though.

Just goes to show that you need to try out your defensive ammo thoroughly despite the reputation of the manufacturer.
This.^ x 100.

As I mentioned, none of the 230 gr HP ammo caused any trouble at all in any of our SA pistols except Rangers in my XDS. It still functioned, but the RTB felt strange; perceptibly slower than other rounds, so that one was crossed off the list. HST or Gold Dots were perfect, so I chose what I could get on sale at the time through sgammo.com. Winner - GDs.
 
#22 ·
When the time comes for a visit, have 'em bring you a stash. :)
 
#25 ·
I like the HST because they look pretty expanded. Doesn't make them any better than a gold dot though if it jams though :-D
I've got three boxes in my HD/SD ammo box. They were on sale as well at one time, and they do look nice expanded. An HST had never jammed any of our guns.

Here's a Gold Dot. Not bad either:

Product Leaf Petal Metal Plant
 
#26 ·
If you are worried about penetration issues consider a 124 grain 9mm its a great bonded round that doesn't go super deep. I'll stick with 147 HST/Gold dots/RangerT cause when someone is stabbing me to death I want them to stop. However some of my bugs did not like the longer bullets so I put 124 gold dots in them.

DRT is crazy stupid and inneffective.
 
#27 ·
Video on drt ammunition:


It is about the only frangible round that I have seen with this kind of performance. Not so reactive that it won't penetrate, but still reactive enough that it won't overpenetrate if I need to use it. In more worried about having a passthrough go through my acquired target and manage to hit an innocent by standard.
 
#28 ·
Like the G2 and the Liberty Defense stuff.

Don't give me that "ZOMG 1600FPS WOWZERS" ****. Unless it's throwing 135gr or so, it's nothing spectacular.

While I still want a FN FiveseveN and a RIA .22 TCM, they'd be fun guns only. Definitely on the bottom end of options I'd chose for defense.
 
#29 ·
Like the G2 and the Liberty Defense stuff.

Don't give me that "ZOMG 1600FPS WOWZERS" ****. Unless it's throwing 135gr or so, it's nothing spectacular.

While I still want a FN FiveseveN and a RIA .22 TCM, they'd be fun guns only. Definitely on the bottom end of options I'd chose for defense.
I don't care for the holy crap speed that these gimmicky rounds achieve, but the lack of felt recoil and overpenetration, coupled with the fact that I can fire, reacquire the sights and fire again in the same amount of time it takes for me to fire and start reaquiring the sights with my gold dots gives me reason to feel that I wouldn't be undergunned while carrying DRT's while on protest duty.

I'm fairly certian that 3 or 4 rounds of DRT to the pelvis gut and center mass would put just about anyone on the ground.
 
#33 ·
Cartoon Face Chin Forehead White-collar worker
 
#31 ·
Wait...what are we discussing again?
 
#32 ·
@spencerk there are only four rounds worthy of EDC duty...your gimmick rounds are not one of them...sorry, but trusting your life to gimmicks and false hope is just Ignorant

FEDERAL HST
SPEER GOLD DOT
WINCHESTER RANGER T
REMINGTON GOLDEN SABRE

Only 4 worth a damn...period

these have been proven by actual shootings not Gel Tests and Hype...Ayoob and Vickers advocate a proven HP load, which is good enough for me
 
#35 ·
@spencerk there are only four rounds worthy of EDC duty...your gimmick rounds are not one of them...sorry, but trusting your life to gimmicks and false hope is just Ignorant

FEDERAL HST
SPEER GOLD DOT
WINCHESTER RANGER T
REMINGTON GOLDEN SABRE

Only 4 worth a damn...period

these have been proven by actual shootings not Gel Tests and Hype...Ayoob and Vickers advocate a proven HP load, which is good enough for me
Redbull thats an obselete list the golden sabers are old technology and really fail to perform through any sort of barrier at all (like say cars) I'd take it off your list. Its obsolete.
 
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#37 ·
Dude this is 2015 the odds of the person you shooting having the same skin color/crede/orientation and so on as you is almost nill. Therefore you will get fired.

Stop worrying about it and make sure you can get home alive. Cause not getting sued cause your dead and he's not is a losing proposition
 
#44 ·
@spencerk we aren't bringing all this up in vain...we are pointing it out because it is important--critical in some senses--that you are gathering information and making a conclusion of the relevant bits...

We want everyone (well almost everyone ;) ) whom posts here to continue to do so...we do not want any of the members or their family to become a statistic in the "should have done this" file...

Ultimately,the choice is yours to make...we simply are critical of the factors you are using to make that decision...
 
#45 ·
^^Bingo.

Some of us may come off terse or abrupt, but it's more just being matter of fact. We've seen these discussions time and time again, and we tend to condense our points now.

What we are not, I guarantee you, is married to any particular carry round. Speaking for myself, I tend to stay as well informed as possible in defensive ammo news. And, what I've found is that when it comes to effective terminal performance, a heavy for caliber, modern design JHP (usually having its roots in LE use) is still the going concern, regardless of caliber. It needs to be able to punch through heavy bones (say, a humerus AND ribs) and still be able to penetrate deeply into vitals after. This requires both mass and a cohesive bullet...which frangibles, by design, do not have.

If somebody comes out with a lightweight frangible that CAN do that, I will be paying very close attention; however, that's yet to happen, up to and including DRT.

Don't take this personally; we are not attacking you; we are simply questioning your reasoning that brought you to your conclusion.
 
#47 ·
^^Bingo.

Some of us may come off terse or abrupt, but it's more just being matter of fact. We've seen these discussions time and time again, and we tend to condense our points now.

What we are not, I guarantee you, is married to any particular carry round. Speaking for myself, I tend to stay as well informed as possible in defensive ammo news. And, what I've found is that when it comes to effective terminal performance, a heavy for caliber, modern design JHP (usually having its roots in LE use) is still the going concern, regardless of caliber. It needs to be able to punch through heavy bones (say, a humerus AND ribs) and still be able to penetrate deeply into vitals after. This requires both mass and a cohesive bullet...which frangibles, by design, do not have.

If somebody comes out with a lightweight frangible that CAN do that, I will be paying very close attention; however, that's yet to happen, up to and including DRT.

Don't take this personally; we are not attacking you; we are simply questioning your reasoning that brought you to your conclusion.
I'm not taking it personally. I just get annoyed when someone calls me ignorant when they don't even have first hand experience with the subject at hand.

Yes frangibles are almost always stupid and worthless, and I have tested almost every brand and have come to the same conclusion, BUT DRT's are NOT nearly as crappy as most of the frangibles on the market and DO penetrate more than just a couple of inches. I shot a coyote with the .40 s&w DRT's and it went through the shoulder and ribs, and completely destroyed a lung along with ripping puncturing the heart with multiple fragments. The coyote did not get more than 15 yards before it dropped. That was with just one round. I know k9's are not as hard bodied as humans but I'm pretty sure based on that kill plus the over 1000 rounds of DRT that I've shot for fun and random objects snd ballistics gel, that the 9mm DRT is plenty lethal for defensive use.

That being said I do NOT trust it over traditional hollowpoints. For my one peaceful protest gig, I will continue carrying it because it makes ME feel comfortable and confident.

And I'm sure nobody wants to get shot by 9mms DRT's...

If I end up needing to use my weapon and it doesn't perform as well as a normal hollowpoint, that's on me. But in my experience, I am confident that the 9mm DRT is lethal and would stop any life threatening confrontation I would be forced to deal with at one of these peaceful protests...
 
#46 ·
HST 147 grain is the way to go with 9mm SD ammo.

I don't think gimmicky rounds will do you any good. I think you have a false comfort based on target shooting, scenarios you cannot control and heavy marketing. The folks here know a little more and while I can't agree with them all every time / listen to what people are telling you here.

Someone wants you to feel that gimmicky comfort and you are sold on the wrong ammo - period.

For the deer hunting - I can't say I'm a believer in shooting deer anywhere outside of the pumper. I also bow hunt heavily - deer take off and can run a good ways on any vital shot. I've dropped only two deer in their tracks in the 100+ that I've harvested. It's not about the kill - it's about the entire experience.

I would never aim for the skull or neck area because I usually go for large bucks and I don't care for busted up racks.

I don't get the pleasure of using a high powered rifle where I hunt - and can't say I would use one if I could. I hunt heavily wooded and brushy areas. In archery season, this makes shots incredibly difficult unless they cross a shooting lane. Some of my stands are tucked in to the point that I only get 3 or four possible shots. If they pass by and don't land in a lane - I cannot and will not shoot.

This wide open hunting is foreign to me - and I'm sure people grow up on it like I grew up on woodland hunting. What I most enjoy - the biggest bucks around these parts are almost always hanging in the thick...and unless you are willing to go where they are and move through - good luck bagging a trophy. Sure, some people do, and maybe their only option, hunt feeders and canned style. I can't stand that as I see it being zero skill and cherry picking a paid for target.

I'm getting off point here - sorry.

To sum it up - stop using the gimmicky frangible rounds for all purposes except fun with range objects. And for heaven's sake - stop taking head shots on deer - regardless of the size you are shooting. Shoot two - problem solved.
 
#49 ·
HST 147 grain is the way to go with 9mm SD ammo.

I don't think gimmicky rounds will do you any good. I think you have a false comfort based on target shooting, scenarios you cannot control and heavy marketing. The folks here know a little more and while I can't agree with them all every time / listen to what people are telling you here.

Someone wants you to feel that gimmicky comfort and you are sold on the wrong ammo - period.

For the deer hunting - I can't say I'm a believer in shooting deer anywhere outside of the pumper. I also bow hunt heavily - deer take off and can run a good ways on any vital shot. I've dropped only two deer in their tracks in the 100+ that I've harvested. It's not about the kill - it's about the entire experience.

I would never aim for the skull or neck area because I usually go for large bucks and I don't care for busted up racks.

I don't get the pleasure of using a high powered rifle where I hunt - and can't say I would use one if I could. I hunt heavily wooded and brushy areas. In archery season, this makes shots incredibly difficult unless they cross a shooting lane. Some of my stands are tucked in to the point that I only get 3 or four possible shots. If they pass by and don't land in a lane - I cannot and will not shoot.

This wide open hunting is foreign to me - and I'm sure people grow up on it like I grew up on woodland hunting. What I most enjoy - the biggest bucks around these parts are almost always hanging in the thick...and unless you are willing to go where they are and move through - good luck bagging a trophy. Sure, some people do, and maybe their only option, hunt feeders and canned style. I can't stand that as I see it being zero skill and cherry picking a paid for target.

I'm getting off point here - sorry.

To sum it up - stop using the gimmicky frangible rounds for all purposes except fun with range objects. And for heaven's sake - stop taking head shots on deer - regardless of the size you are shooting. Shoot two - problem solved.
I was brought up taking headshots on deer at close range to save the meat. That's just how I was taut to hunt. I've never lost a deer but nearly everyone I know who shoots for the boiler room has had at least one deer get away from them. my hunting style works for me has worked for my family for generations so I'm not gchanging a thing.

Now if we are talking about shooting larger mule deer or elk, that's a whole nother story... .308 or .30-06 with good hollowpints and a shot boiler room seems to be the ticket.
 
#55 · (Edited)
This is why I wish I took pictures of this stuff even though I don't like the idea of it.

I used beef ribs with a ham behind the ribs to simulate a ribcage and internals. The DRT acted like a solid round going through the ribs and made a really nasty mess of the ham. The actual tissue was more impressive than the ballistics gel. The solid core didn't fully fracture and almost made it all the way through the ribs. I also had 2 layers of denim layer over it.

The blazer safety slugs just exploded in the ribs and the DRT's would penetrate no problem. The second the DRT hit soft tissue it started to fragment and obliterate its self. The core penetrated about 10.5" leaving a real nasty wound cavity behind it

This is why I wish I would take pictures of this stuff even though I don't feel like it internet koshier. I generally don't even bring these things up without proof but in this case I feel it's necessary with so many people assuming that I don't know what I'm doing. Trust me, I don't take it the wrong way. I get that it's coming from a good place but I do have a lot of experience with this specific bullet and I know it performs better than any other frangible round I have tried and I know for a fact that it is lethal and effective. Not in normal situations would I carry it because the penetration is slightly handicapped but when I'm worried about crowds of people, I'll take the chance and loose a couple inches of penetration for the peace of mind that my target is my backstop rather than whatever is behind the target possibly becoming a backstop. That may be ignorant to some of you but I have put a lot of thought and money into testing what ammo I'm comfortable carrying.

Now put me in the same situation in south central and I'm loading traditional hollowpoints because I'm no longer in suburbia and worrying about small children and pregnant vegans
 
#56 ·
You need to understand:

Ribs are not a humerus; they are NOT heavy bones.

Your test assumes a best case scenario--a straight shot directly to the chest.

Real shoots are not silhouette targets. Your assailant(s) will not have their arms down to the side; they will be up in front of them, holding a weapon. You will likely have to punch a bullet through them.
Shoulder Clothing Arm Cap Neck

Arm Muscle Stock photography Photography Hand

Photos taken from LEtargets.com

Again; quality JHP's rarely exit the torso.
 
#57 ·
Trust me I know how it works. I am taking the chance that my round won't overpenetrate rarely knowing that the round I am using may not perform as well as a conventional hollowpoint. That being said I do feel confident that it will stop a threat based on the damage I have seen it do while testing it. I honestly bought them for fun just like I did the Glasers but was suprized at their performance which made me rest them more and more which is why I know that they don't even work in all firearms because of the weak jacket reforming while being chambered. It doesn't seem to be an issue with xd's or Beretta's but I see it with many other firearms.
 
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