Flat points

Discussion in 'The Ammo Can' started by Steamboat, Nov 17, 2009.

  1. Steamboat

    Steamboat XDTalk Member

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    Recommended I ask this here after raising the issue in the 45 room.

    I roll my own ammo for my 45 tac. Because the Ranier 200 grain flat points were the only thing available for awhile at Midway that's what I got. Shot about 50 of them the other day and one out of each mag wouldn't feed and it was always a few rounds into the mag.

    Prior to this I have been shooting Hornady and Ranier HP's without even so much as a hint of a hiccup. Same with my mags ... all have worked great until this past weekend with the FP's.

    It was recommended I polish the feed ramp. Is this above and beyond cleaning it well? Advice please!

    BTW, my ammo is a 200 gr FP on 5.3 grains of Titegroup and an OAL of 1.225.

    Any thoughts on the why's of the problem?
     
  2. akroguy

    akroguy XDTalk 100 Member

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    They should feed fine. I use the same (I would surmise from your description) bullet from Missouri Bullet Co. and have never had any feeding issues. Unless they're semi wadcutters...which, for most XD's, are a problem. The bullets I use are pretty much standard 230 grain hardball profile, with the nose flattened, taking off 30 grains.

    Are you having the same problem with any magazine used? Are they fairly clean?

    Is the gun running dry or oiled?

    I'd start with a thorough cleaning...both the gun and the mags then try again. My reloads do coke up the gun that's for sure. I typically run 500 rounds through it before I clean it. Or, when it gets so bad the chunks of carbon start sticking to my shooting glasses. :oops:
     
  3. fredj338

    fredj338 XDTalk 10K Member

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    Nosing down, up, I assume nosing down? You may have to play a bit w/ the OAL. They have a sim. profile to many JHP, like the XTP, some like slightly shorter OAL. I load the Berry's 200grFP, very sim. to an OAL of 1.20" & they feed flawlessly from my TAC. You are pushing your TG hard @ 5.3gr for plated so I would drop 0.1gr if you seat a bit deeper. I doubt polishing the feed ramp will improve anything, it' snot like the gun wasn't designed for JHP.
     
  4. Steamboat

    Steamboat XDTalk Member

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    As I mentioned mags have never been an issue. I haven't cleaned them so perhaps I'll do that. I keep my weapon well lubricated but not dripping.

    Not sure what you mean by nosing up/down. I believe down would be accurate. Essentially the bullet seems to get slammed by the slide into the feed ramp. I'll take your advice and lighten up on the Titegroup and seat a tad deeper and see what happens.

    Thanks guys for chimming in.
     
  5. xdmp22

    xdmp22 XDTalk 5K Member

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    if ur bullet is pointing to up (out of slide), shorten your OAL, if it is pointing down (toward mag) increase your OAL, remeber .45 ACP max length is 1.275 so you could go longer, do 50 long and 50 short and see what happens, shoot the short first as you can always push the longer one down more later if short works!
     
  6. mongoose33

    mongoose33 XDTalk 2K Member Founding Member

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    Two thoughts on this. I looked on Midway and there is no bullet called Rainier Flat Point. So I'm not clear on whether you're shooting this bullet:

    Rainier LeadSafe Bullets 45 Caliber (451 Diameter) 200 Grain Plated Flat Nose - MidwayUSA

    Or this bullet:

    Rainier LeadSafe Bullets 45 Caliber (451 Diameter) 200 Grain Plated Semi-Wadcutter - MidwayUSA

    If it's the second, that's your problem. XD-45 has trouble with semi-wadcutters--the shoulder of the bullet tends to catch on the case of the fired round, jamming, which would explain why it never happens on the first round.

    The second thought is whether OAL is changing as you're firing. I might fire a few and then see what the OAL is of the rounds that jam, compared to what you're loading them at.


    Failing that, I'd wonder (as others have) if your rounds are just too long for that bullet profile. There's no reason they shouldn't feed, and I agree with Fred; I doubt polishing the feed ramp will matter, since your misfeeds are always in the same place in the mag.
     
  7. fredj338

    fredj338 XDTalk 10K Member

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    The SAAMI OAL of 1.275" is max not optimal. Every bullet design likes a diff OAL. IF you load that 200gr Ranier to 1.275: it will likely not 3even chamber. The XD has a very short throat & truncated cone bullets will require slightly shorter OAL, 1.20"-1.22". Also check your mags, weak springs will allow the bullet to nose down.
    Mongoose makes a good point, if the bullets are setting back on hitting the ramp, this will certainly play havoc w/ feeding. Check your case neck/mouth tension by pushing the nose of the loaded round into th bench. It shold NOT move. If it does, you need to make an adjustment to your belling die. Also, all brass is NOT the same. If you are loading mixed range brass, some will have thinner case mouths than others & this could be causing loss of neck/mouth tension.
     
    Last edited: Nov 18, 2009
  8. Steamboat

    Steamboat XDTalk Member

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    I'm shooting the bullets in the link. I've known for a while that SWC's aren't XD friendly. By the way, it says "200 gr FP" on the box so I assumed FP meant flat point. Not sure what else it could mean.
     
  9. Steamboat

    Steamboat XDTalk Member

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    Thanks. Holy poop ... now I have a bunch of things to look at because I do have mixed brass. I am falring the case mouth just enough to allow the bullet to sit there. I am going to tighten the crimp just a smidge in addition to seating the bullet just a hair deeper. Right now my average OAL is right at 1.22 so I'll perhaps try a 1.20.
     
  10. fredj338

    fredj338 XDTalk 10K Member

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    How are you crimping? If it's a LFCD, too much crimp will actually cause loss of case mouth tension.
     
  11. mongoose33

    mongoose33 XDTalk 2K Member Founding Member

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    Another perfectly good theory shot to hell by facts. :)

    OK, we've eliminated that one. I suspected it was the flat nose you were shooting, just wanted to be sure.
     
  12. Steamboat

    Steamboat XDTalk Member

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    How do you quantify or qualify crimping? :confused: Right now, when those rounds had the failure to feed they were setting the bullet back into the case enough to be noticeable and I sure as heck didn't want to fire it that way! Like I said, the OAL was at 1.220 and the setback rounds were at 1.185. that's why I was thinking a little more crimp might be necessary.

    What is LFCD? CD obviously is crimp die. I have a Hornady LnL set up and Hornady dies.

    Thanks for the feedback by the way. I've been shooting and rolling my own now for 10 years so this just goes to show you can always learn something from somebody. :D
     
  13. mongoose33

    mongoose33 XDTalk 2K Member Founding Member

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    Lee Factory Crimp Die. It has a sizing ring that ensures case dimensions are correct, a post-seating sizing action. I generally like it, but it can squeeze the case enough to distort a soft bullet. I've disassembled dummy rounds with Rainier bullets after crimping, and I've seen where you can in fact, squeeze them and distort the bullet if you crimp too tightly.

    That's not the case in your case, though. (ANOTHER perfectly good theory shot to hell by facts. : ).

    The question I'd have now, since you've identified that there is in fact an OAL issue after the jam (perhaps causing the jam), is whether the shorter OAL is from the round jamming into the feed ramp and pushing the bullet further in the case, or whether they're being set back by repeated firing.

    How does the jammed OAL compare to the next couple of rounds in the mag?
     
  14. fltbed

    fltbed XDTalk 100 Member

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    A lot of reloaders are under the misconception that bullet tension is determined by the final “crimp” die. I think the main reason for this misunderstanding is the in name “crimp” die.


    In other metal work, if you want to bind two pieces of sheet metal together you “crimp” them together. Like banding some boxes together on a pallet. The band is tightened around the boxes then the banding is “crimped” to hold it in place. The crimp must be firm or the banding will come loose.

    In reloading straight wall cases that headspace on the case mouth we use a “taper crimp” die. However this die doesn’t really “crimp” anything. It’s sole purpose in life is to remove the flair on the mouth of the casing so the round feeds and headspaces correctly.

    A properly adjusted crimp die may or may not increase bullet tension by as much as 10%. Screw that die down further and the casing starts to buckle releasing it’s grip of the bullet. You know the results from there.

    Bullet tension is determined by:
    1. The resizing die.
    2. The expander plug.
    3. Case wall thickness.
    4. Bullet diameter.

    The best way I know to properly set up you crimp die is first resize a casing and measure the mouth diameter with a set of calipers. Now take that empty casing and run it up into the crimp die and measure again. The two measurements should be the same or up to .002 smaller. Remember though less is more when it comes to bullet crimp.

    Sorry so long winded. I didn’t mean for this to be a lecture.

    Jeff
     
  15. fredj338

    fredj338 XDTalk 10K Member

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    fltbed gave a great response to the crimping issue. I can only add that you can not taper crimp enough to hold a bullet in place if you have a loss of neck tension. The bullett should not push into the cse BEFORE crimping. All the taper rimp does is remove the slight bell at the case mouth & provide a uniform OAL diameter. SOme reistance is offered by a good roll or taper crimp, but not enough to offset bullet setback completely. Check the dia. of the expander, it needs to be at least 0.002"-0.003" smaller than bullet diameter for best fit.
     

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